There’s a reason why I’ve never really stated whether I’m pro- or anti-porn: my position is not that simple. And I don’t understand why anyone thinks it can be that simple. Not everyone’s working from the same definition of “porn”, for one thing. But there are so many elements to this conversation.
In fact, forget porn for a minute. Anemone distilled something for me a while back: in mainstream film, actresses are practically required to get naked and do sex scenes a lot – far more than male actors. This creates a situation of institutionalized sexual discrimination. It’s not that no actress ever happily and willingly filmed one of those scenes. It’s that very few (who, other than Julia Roberts?) manage to choose not to do those scenes and still have a great career. It’s not that women don’t have any other choice for how they can earn their living. It’s that they should have the option to work in film without facing special requirements their male counterparts don’t. Imagine being unable to get a promotion in your field of, say, telecommunications, without letting your bosses photograph you naked, and you begin to see a glimmer of what actresses go through. And the guys you work with get to skip that step.
This is wrong. And a lot of what happens to actresses in porn is equally wrong. The consequences can even be worse, given that commercial porn has gotten so hardcore that it seems likely actresses are being physically damaged for it. I know that link’s not the best source in the world, but when I searched the engines for links about women/actresses being hurt in porn, all I got were links salaciously offering to show me women being hurt in a sexual context. That says a lot, right there. (I got the Gail Dines link from Reddit Feminisms.) [ETA: a better link here.]
I have a problem with all that, and if it causes you to label me anti-porn, whatever. But you should also label me anti-film, I guess, since because I think both Hollywood and the porn industry are fully capable of providing fair working conditions for women but all too frequently don’t, my feelings on both industries and their treatment of actual women are pretty much identical.
Which brings us to the content of porn. As you know if you read this site, I object to a lot of mainstream movie content that I consider misogynistic. I feel the same way about porn. I have a problem with misogynist content wherever I find it. That said, I see the potential value of porn as sexual fantasies on screen, if the industry would (1) look after the well-being of actors better and (2) offer at least some non-misogynistic and midandrist content to balance out the misogyny. That certainly makes me anti-porn industry – at least the mainstream commercial industry as it is now. But then again, I feel pretty much the same way about Hollywood’s attitudes toward (simulated) sex.
I also see a desperate need for some realistic media representation of sex and sexuality (which some people would consider part of porn – I personally do not, but I’m including it to be complete). Perhaps some parts of the world are luckier, but in the US, we’re all caught between (1) people who refuse to talk about sex because that’s dirty, (2) people who blither on about it but actually don’t have a clue what they’re talking about and (3) porn, the most readily available of which is misleading about sex and the human body to say the least.
But perhaps one of the most puzzling aspects of the “pro-porn” position to me has always been that its proponents often see themselves as anti-prudery. I don’t get this, because porn conflates rape and sex even more frequently than religion. And that’s the most prudish belief anyone could harbor: to see sex as something so ungodly ugly and vile, that you can’t distinguish it from a form of torture.
One commenter at the above-linked Alternet article says: “I would say that we should be more worried about a sex-negative culture and attitude that has hijacked our society, necessitating porn.” That sounds good on the surface, but it actually misses the point. Prudishness does not force people to seek out porn; it encourages them to obsess on sex, because that’s what our brains do when you tell us something is forbidden. It’s the obsession with sex, fed by both prudishness and pornography, that causes a lot of problems both for individuals and for our culture in general.
Prudishness and porn both need to get out of our way, because both forms of sex-obsession are frankly just not merited. Sex is something that some people do (not all). It ranges from great to extremely disappointing. Sometimes the participants are gorgeous, but most often they’re just ordinary-looking. Sometimes there are yucky smells. Sometimes there are rude sounds. Sometimes it involves certain numbers and types of partners, other times it involves other configurations. Sex never involves seriously or deliberately hurting someone (outside of a safe BDSM environment).
Truth is, sex is just not that important, in the final analysis.
And that, ultimately, is why I don’t see much difference between porn, mainstream media and organized religion: they’re all just trying to manipulate us by generating an obsession with sex and then preying on it.
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Maybe we are just developing whole new fetishes. I mean, sex that is fun between people who respect each other? Surely that’s a fetish, right?
It’s sad that there is more out there devoted to foot fetishes than there is devoted to sex being good, clean, wholesome fun.
When I win the lottery, after I am done starting an video game company that respects women and a movie production company that treats women as people, I’m going into porn production.
GardenGoblin(Quote) (Reply)
Hehe, you also seem to have the same pipe dreams as me. And we share a fetish for fun sex.
The Other Patrick(Quote) (Reply)
fun sex, you know, with a laugh
For me, one of the sexiest things a female porn performer can do during a scene is laugh.
Patrick McGraw(Quote) (Reply)
A lot of her statements reference articles and studies that don’t say what she claims they do.
Patrick McGraw(Quote) (Reply)
OMG when you do that you must hire me! PROMISE! (For the game company that is. I don’t think you’d want me for the last one. xD)
Aconite(Quote) (Reply)
Violence is more than just serial killers. It’s also bullying and sexual harassment in schools and at work and in the street, etc, plus rape and aggravated assault.
It takes more than porn to turn someone into a serial killer, but porn may contribute to ideas of who to hurt how, plus it may desensitize other people in the environment who might be in a position to notice something wrong.
Anemone(Quote) (Reply)
I considered reading her book until I read that she quotes the $12 billion a year figure, which has been deconstructed elsewhere. The true figure for porn in the US is probably more like $1-2 billion. Makes it a little harder to take her seriously.
Anemone(Quote) (Reply)
I don’t even know if they’ve studied books. TV’s been studied because it’s relatively new, and because people watch it so much. And porn because of the explosion of porn in the 1960s. It would be interesting to see research on books, too.
And yes, it’s an emotional subject for some of us. I’ve always been honest about where I’m coming from. And I know that scientists can be earnestly dead-wrong: you should see what they publish in autism research! But I’ve also seen how earnest people are in promoting sexualized media, insisting it sells when it doesn’t, really (it’s strictly a niche market, from what I can see). Everyone’s got a bias.
Anemone(Quote) (Reply)
Violence is more than just serial killers…It takes more than porn to turn someone into a serial killer, but porn may contribute to ideas of who to hurt how, plus it may desensitize other people in the environment who might be in a position to notice something wrong.
Yes, and I didn’t mean to break it down that way.
While violent media can’t desensitize someone with empathy to the point of becoming a predator, it does do two other equally worrying things:
–Desensitizes people with empathy to OTHER PEOPLE’S horrible experiences. It can render you apathetic, making you feel like problems in society can’t be fixed, so why not just go play a video game and forget about it?
–There are in every generation a number of teens who didn’t learn empathy when they should have (by age 4), but they have a chance to learn it now – or decide “fuck it, I only care what I want.” By mainstreaming violent media, we help ensure they will make the latter choice. They may not become predators, either, but they will make you feel stupid if you express concern for, say, sexual violence in the Congo.
And their outlook will become increasingly common, and more and more people with empathy will just shut up and keep it to themselves. In fact, I think this has already happened.
I think another component in the equation is the realization that society really doesn’t give a rat’s ass what happens to you. I mean, the body count in Western TV shows in the 50s was pretty high, yet I don’t think that’s what led to Baby Boomer “me me me” apathy in the 80s. I think it was the footage of Vietnam, shown on TV news, which was violent as hell AND backed up by the reality that the US government cheerfully shipped the less privileged kids over there to die while protecting their own young’uns from any such fate. If I’m correctly informed, that was the real beginning of violent media in the US, and because it WAS backed up by the reality that your leaders considered you cannon fodder, the impact was to teach a whole generation that their society, like a sociopath, didn’t see them as deserving to live.
Since then, at least in the US, every bit of violent media, real or simulated, has been backed up by that overwhelming cultural awareness: no one’s looking out for me.
Just as violent media is a tool for a budding sociopath to get over his last inhibitions and start hurting people, it also serves as a tool to help society’s leaders get over their last hang-ups about *appearing* to give a fuck about anything but their own wants and needs.
And what’s good about living in a society like that?
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
This might be going off-topic again, but it bothers me that people take as natural the fact that most porn is for men. If not nearly all.
Karakuri(Quote) (Reply)
Not at all off-topic. It reinforces the idea that sex is something the universe created for manly men, and everyone who provides sex to men comes in a distant second on the natural hierarchy.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Ok, heh, just that I’m always introducing new points and not discussing what’s already being discussed in the thread – because I shouldn’t until I’ve done more research, imo.
This is a field I’m really curious about, though. How would it affect women’s minds to be exposed as much as men are to fantasy made by and for them? Would it empower them on some private level?
Karakuri(Quote) (Reply)
There’s a nice blog post by Furry Girl here where she writes against “porn for women” – at least the way it’s made.
NSFW link, btw
The Other Patrick(Quote) (Reply)
In one presentation (or an article, I forget which), she presented figures that shows that the porn industry was bigger than Hollywood – I have no idea if her numbers were real, but it involved comparing total gross of the porn industry, including video sales, internet subscriptions, phone downloads, etc. to… Hollywood box office receipts. No video rentals or sales, no merchandising, nothing like that. It was one of teh most dishonest uses of numbers that I have ever seen outside of political elections.
Patrick McGraw(Quote) (Reply)
Seriously, my God. I mean, I’m not really into gay porn or slash in and of itself, but…apparently there’s some kind of thing where men in het porn have to be eye-searingly hideous.
And no, twelve inches does not make up for the fact that you look like an uncooked turkey with a bad mustache glued on. EW. NO.
Izzy(Quote) (Reply)
I’ve found this convo super fascinating. I’ve stayed out of it because I don’t have much experience – I read porn, but all my visuals to accompany the words are in my head.
But this made me LOL.
sbg(Quote) (Reply)
And let’s face the simple fact:
If someone whipped one of those 12″ monstrosities out at me I’d screech and try to kill it with a stick, then burn it to be sure.
If it’s bigger around than my wrist, it’s goin nowhere near my nethers, thank you very damn much.
I mean, seriously, I’m 5’2″ tall and you want to stick something 1/5th my height inside me? And that’s supposed to feel GOOD? I don’t think so.
The average index finger can do the job quite nicely if used by someone who cares about what they are doing, so why exactly am I supposed to be drawn to some of these Biggus Dickus guys? It sure isn’t their looks or winning personalities.
GardenGoblin(Quote) (Reply)
I remember when I was REALLY young (like 9 or 10) and me and three friends (one girl, two boys) were at my girl-friend’s house looking at hentai on her computer…I complained “WHY ARE THE GUYS SO UGLY~!?” and the two boys responded that guys in hetero porn/hentai are ugly (or just plain non-existent) so they don’t accidentally turn on the MALE viewers…however, a few years later they came out as gay and bi (respectively) so how they personally felt obviously colored their theory…I think male porn stars are ugly so the guys watching can identify with them more or something, isn’t that it??
Casey(Quote) (Reply)
Glad to hear it.
Isabel C.(Quote) (Reply)
Amen! As a friend of mine once said, “Really big weenies are just… not comfortable.”
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Hee! See, I’m about the same size, and, er, not to be TMI Girl, but…yeah, I like it when they pack a lot of equipment. However, I can *buy* the same damn thing through any number of reputable retail outlets, without the accompanying fugliness, so I’m really not seeing the point of sleeping with the dude whose only asset is in his pants.
I mean, I still would have to look at him, right? And even in the dark…ew. Also, ew.
Isabel C.(Quote) (Reply)
I think what they said probably still stands. I was given the same reason (by people working in film) when I asked why you can’t show dick in R films but you can show entirely naked women and simulated sex that leaves nothing but dick to the imagination.
Of course, most guys will tell you that it simply grosses them out to see another man, but if you, a het woman, express that you’d rather not see naked women, you’re a terrible prude. So whenever guys express distaste at seeing naked men, I make sure to call them prudes.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
That’s my guess, yeah. I used to think it was the “women have to act, men have to perform” thing, and that guys who can keep it up in front of a camera are rare enough for the producers to be non-choosy…but then we have gay porn, so I don’t know.
Anyhow, het porn goes with sitcoms on my list of things that perpetuate the fucking irritating “guys, you can be Jabba the Hutt with more body hair and still get hot chicks” myth.
Isabel C.(Quote) (Reply)
And yet I find it very plausible that people get hurt making these films. I mean, the most plain vanilla sex had by loving people can cause muscle spasms and various minor injuries. Throw in more exotic acts/positions, the thrusting of things into orifices designed to expel stuff, and a demand the sex be rough, hard and fast, and how could it not be pretty hard on human bodies?
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Well, they are, as MTV likes to say about Jackass, trained performers. Maybe they actually are much less brutal than it seems on film, maybe they know some tricks or simply have adapted to certain… intrusions, and maybe they accept the risk of injury as part of their job.
Though I’m sure there are injuries, overall.
The Other Patrick(Quote) (Reply)
Well, that’s hopeful. Sorry, I just find it hard to imagine the porn industry carefully training people and making sure they understand what they’re getting into when there are no protections or regulations requiring they do so, and certainly no consequences for it.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
And you’re correct to do so. Just playing devil’s advocate here – at least I didn’t quote some blog post about “I personally know women who gush positively about the most degrading porn because off camera was such a great experience”.
But individual porn performers might still educate themselves on good behavior.
The Other Patrick(Quote) (Reply)
Yes, I didn’t object to what you were saying or how you said it – I just disagree.
For me, additionally, it’s not a question of what porn performers might do for themselves and each other to make things easier. It’s been established to my satisfaction that anytime you get enough people together to form an industry, there are a lot of people involved who don’t give a shit about anyone else’s well-being, and that’s why we need regulations.
I mean, as much as I think is wrong and even abusive in H’wood, at least there are consequences if they get actors hurt in a stunt.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Oh, all for it, in all kinds of jobs. But regulating porn… imagine how loud certain politicians would scream and shout.
The Other Patrick(Quote) (Reply)
Veteran performer and director Ernest Greene has written a fair amount about what goes on during porn productions. Basically, while injuries can and do happen, most people are concerned with trying to avoid them. If a producer displays a lack of concern about their performers, word will quickly spread . It’s certainly not an ideal system and would benefit greatly from unionization, but it isn’t the travesty that teh detractors make it out to be.
Patrick McGraw(Quote) (Reply)
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