Joss Whedon’s latest project, developed during the writers’ strike, was an internet-based musical starring Neil Patrick Harris, Nathan Fillion and Felicia Day, aired in three acts over the past week. Spoilers for all three acts follow, if you haven’t seen it.
Since it’s Joss Whedon, it’s practically guaranteed to come with high expectations attached, both for quality creative work and, in many circles, for feminist content. On the former, Dr. Horrible’s Sing Along Blog definitely lives up to the hype. On the latter, unfortunately, I have to say that it failed miserably. Of the three characters, Penny is by far the least developed. She’s a sweet, somewhat naive, save-the-world local activist with big, romantic dreams for her life. While the two male characters are also stereotypes in a way, they’re both larger than life, hilarious caricatures, whereas Penny just seems to lack personality. The fact that Dr. Horrible initially falls for her as he encounters her twice weekly in the incredibly mundane setting of the laundromat is fitting, here.
And naturally, in a story with three characters, two male and one female, there is a love triangle at work, and as is often the case, the woman in that story becomes more of a prop at play in the interaction between the two men. The real relationship struggle, the real competition is between Dr. Horrible and Captain Hammer. The reason Penny has lasting appeal to Captain Hammer is because it’s one more front on which he can assert his superiority over Dr. Horrible – while the scene where Captain Hammer assures Dr. Horrible that he will be having sex with Dr. Horrible’s crush was admittedly hilarious, due mainly to Nathan Fillion’s delivery, it depended entirely upon playing out their battle with one another using a woman’s body as a way of scoring points. Worst of all, Penny dies at the end, in exactly the kind of death scene we’ve complained about several times on this site – one that serves almost exclusively to progress the character development of the men in her life. She dies as a result of the competition between the two men, accidentally, by getting in the way. Despite the fact that immediately before Dr. Horrible arrived on the scene, she seemed to be recognizing her boyfriend’s incredible arrogance and selfishness, with her dying breath, she sings “Captain Hammer will save us”. Not only does this show her as the woman to be rescued (if unsuccessfully), the main point of having her say it was to take away that last thing that made Dr. Horrible want to be…not horrible, and cement his commitment to proving himself as the most evil person alive.
I think there were some aspects of the two male characters that redeem the feminist side of this equation a little – Captain Hammer in particular satirizes stereotypical masculinity and strength, falls apart at the slightest hint of pain, and very explicitly acts as a hero not because he’s a good person, but because it gets him attention and affirmation – but overall, the gender roles were disappointingly cliché. I do recognize that this wasn’t an extremely large project, but everything Joss Whedon does gets a pretty significant amount of attention, particularly over the internet. These criticisms don’t even depend on holding Whedon to a higher standard than other authors because of his public stance on feminism – these are exactly the kinds of characters and relationships that have me banging my head against the wall when I see them in nearly every mainstream television show or movie, and thinking for more than thirty seconds about making the woman in your storyline in any way interesting in her own right should not be too much to ask.
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Skittledog, there’s no rule that says a feminist can’t enjoy a show/movie just because it doesn’t meet her/his feminist standards. Hell, if there were, there’d be very little on celluloid for us to enjoy.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
To: S.A. Bonasi,
I disagree, with your take on things. Penny’s last words where: “Captain Hammer will save us.”, or something to that point. She died being the woman who still believes in the jerk even though his true colors were revealed. This is a Hallmark of women in abusive relationships with a misogynistic man, or men, in this case, who, the women that is, keep believing in, even when they show lack of moral character. A fact also proven by Captain Hammer’s loyal fans who quickly switched allegiances to the victor.
You see, often times in this world, it doesn’t matter if you are the perceived good guy, or the perceived bad guy, all that people care about is the perception of who is the victor. One man’s hero, is a another man’s terrorist or villain. Penny died believing that Captain Hammer, due to his image, was without flaw…and could, and would save her, but he couldn’t save her, nor did he try. And Dr. Horrible, never cried for her, neither man did…and that is what is truly Horrible as it exposes the mind of the misogynist for what it is…and that is what the blogger behind this observation is pointing out. Penny was used as a tool…a commodity to be fought over like a piece of furniture by the males in this story…but men have been doing that throughout history…starting whole wars over women and gold. Alas, maybe that was Joss’ point???
J. Earley(Quote) (Reply)
Sad but true, this. My fav show at the moment tends to fail and fail HARD to meet my feminist needs, quite often.
sbg(Quote) (Reply)
I sadly have to agree that Dr. Horrible did not aspire to the feminist ideals of most of the Joss Whedon material. He has shown in the past, that even with a male lead, he can make for a strong feminist message. The only possible excuse is that there was not enough time to develop any of the characters. (Which is why I love the You Tube video “Dr. Horrible: The early years). However this excuse only holds up if you don’t believe that the little development that was done on Penny’s character was not as weapon to be used against the Doc.
The very first seconds Penny is on screen, you see her handling her underwear in a laundermat. Not a good sign. =(
And THEN, and this is what pissed me off the most. From the second he drops her off on a gurney (the very edge of a gurney, I am surprised she didn’t fall off), Doctor Horrible is over it. He says himself he feels no emotion. So she’s not even a powerfully effective weapon. At no point was she shown to have strength of any kinda whatsoever. A good heart sure, but she would not even been able to use that for any good if it hadn’t been for Captain Hammer. Sigh. There needs to be a sequel with a female baddie that tears stuff up. Maybe one of the ones in the last scene with Bad Horse. =)
Nobodey(Quote) (Reply)
I don’t know.
It is impossible to make anything and not offend some viewpoint perhaps.
I, as a man, could be upset that the two males presented were stuck up, somewhat misguided, willfully arrogant, happily shallow, etc etc. This was not a show that painted men in anything like a good light when taken in a serious view. Not remotely. That they were somewhat explored more fully in their depths of failings is not much of a redemption. As such, I am not sure Penny’s lack of detailed exploration is anything unforgivable. This was a 45 minute story about Dr. horrible after all. Buffy got 7 -years-. Maybe Joss deserves a little leeway.
I am fairly sure homosexual men could easily find a way to be affronted by their only portrayal in the blog as well.
Joss is a wonderful person. In his name and through his efforts to help Equality Now there are few equals for the good done for the rights of women. The Blog is a comedy. It may be that comedy, by default, points a critical eye at something. By doing so, it will have to portray something in a not entirely glowing light. There were no demons (though there was a horse) and such, so that just left people. Some are men, and some are women.
I looked at it as entertainment and did not dwell on how crappy it makes my gender look by the examples of the villain and pretty idiotic ‘hero.’
The message of the blog is something that looks at society, not specific genders. Heroes are misguided and harmful perhaps. Villains might have redeeming, and ultimately, quite redeeming features. Life tends to beat the ideals out of us after years of punishment. These are things (and there are more) that can be taken onboard, drawn from, and perhaps actions taken in the future after seeing elements in comedy that are actually present in our lives.
I’m mostly happy to see work from Joss again, and I will concentrate on the positive potential of it. I will also giggle at the three cowboys singing Bad Horse’s letter in the opening act. I hope more will look at it without trying to find fault or how it could have been more better.
Criton(Quote) (Reply)
Dr Horrible was my first introduction to JW, other than the odd episode of Buffy. So I can not claim expertise on his works (or on feminism, for that matter). That being said, here’s my two cents:
It seems like the central tenet of the ‘film’ is that people are, in fact, layered like pies. Penny describes Capn Hammer as ‘cheesy on the outside, but sweet on the inside.’ Billy/Dr. Horrible adds that he has a third layer, which is also cheesy. This assertion seems to hold true in Captain Hammer’s case, as he is simultaneously a do-gooder and a chauvinist. Although his motivation seems to be selfish, he does a number of heroic things in the course of the story: he pushes Penny out of the way of the van in Act I, and procures funding for the homeless shelter in Act II. Whatever his motivations may be, good deeds are the means to his ends.
Dr. Horrible, on the other hand, uses evil deeds to get what he wants. If he were to be described as a pie, his outer layer is that of an aspiring villain. On the inside, he’s Billy: an awkward, shy ‘normal guy’ who’s infatuated with a girl he barely knows. If you look deeper at his character, you’ll find that his deepest motivation is not to win Penny’s heart, but to gain entrance into the ELE, get revenge on Captain Hammer at any cost, and eventually take over the world. In other words, Dr. Horrible’s actions are driven by a desire for power, not by love.
Lastly, Penny. I agree that she is a far-less developed character than the two men, but she is more complex than some of you give her credit for. She’s clearly motivated toward social change, and consistently behaves in a manner that serves this purpose. Through dating Captain Hammer, she gains small victories such as the mayor funding her shelter. She seems pleased to reap the rewards of dating the ‘hero’, but remains drawn towards Billy throughout the film. Perhaps she sees Dr. Horrible’s/Billy’s great potential as an agent of social change, but is wary of surrendering the more ‘guaranteed’ returns offered by Captain Hammer’s influence.
All in all, the main characters each have their own three layers of personality. I need a diagram…or perhaps a pie chart (eh? eh?) Am I way off base? Irrelevant?
JohnC(Quote) (Reply)
“I hope more will look at it without trying to find fault or how it could have been more better.”
Fine. Your wish – but not mine. This is the thing I find MOST annoying about Whedon fans. Whedon is not infallible as an artist, and no artist is perfect. Christ, I got into a discussion about the weak parts of Shakespeare’s Henry IV two days ago, but I am not supposed to think Whedon is a tool sometimes? Part of the fun of experiencing art is commenting on it … saying what parts you find strong and which weak. While some of Whedon’s stuff is great, some of his stuff is mediocre, and some of his stuff is somewhat thoughtless and weak.
Dammit, I have a right to my opinion and to criticize and comment. If you look at the title of this blog – that is what this blog is trying to encourage – just having a discussion on female roles.
If you would like to go back to a world where Whedon is some sort of demigod with no faults – there are other blogs.
annx(Quote) (Reply)
True – but we’re not talking about being offended. We’re not asking for someone to make us feel better by writing better women characters. We’re asking why they don’t write them in the first place. We’re asking what it is about the people who drive the TV/film industry that they think white straight men are the most important – arguably only important – characters on celluloid. Framing the argument as if it’s all about our hurt feelings and our desire to have them mollified effectively dismisses the valid questions we’re raising.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
I’d just like to lend some support for the “Penny’s character as parody of classic comic tropes [i.e., Women in Refrigerators"]” view. I think that the blog actively engages with the way in which formerly rich female characters become shafted (pun not intended, but now that I see it here, it stays) as accessories to male protagonists. Look at how Penny’s homeless shelter becomes “Captain Hammer’s Homeless Shelter” in the media, treated as another aspect of his character, rather than of Penny’s. This becomes most explicit when we see Captain Hammer’s fans, interviewed during the media frenzy surrounding Captain Hammer’s charity, holding up a photo of Penny and announcing “We don’t care for her.” To the fans, all the things that made Penny unique have been absorbed into the Captain Hammer persona, and Penny herself is seen as an appendage. This and the “refrigerators” style “death of a female character to enhance male character’s development” are pretty much the two main ways in which female characters are most mistreated in comics, so I have a hard time believing that the fact that BOTH of these tropes show up in Dr. horrible was not intentional parody, especially given
a) Joss Whedon’s track record on engaging feminist issues
and
b) that fact that he writes comics for a living, and is thus familiar with these tropes.
Whether or not the parody is effective, of course, and interpreting the purpose of said parody, is up to the audience , as in all satire. I’m just inclined to give the satirist the benefit of the doubt, as a matter of principle.
P.S. in this case, I interpret the purpose of said parody as a method of exposing how using the female character(s) in this way diminishes their own potential. This is best expressed in Penny’s dying lines, where any shreds of personality she had throughout the musical have literally all been shed, and she is reduced to a transparent cookie-cutter character uttering stock clichés. This grim turn of the parody is underscored by the grim nature of the final song, which I feel reinforces my point.
I hope that this whole post has been coherent. It’s late, and I’m a bit bushed. Good discussion all around so far, though! I look forward to checking this blog when I wake up.
Sam L(Quote) (Reply)
I’m sorry, I still think Penny was the ‘best’ character in the thing, in terms of being most realistic. Which perhaps explains my take on this – real characters win over aspirational ones for me, most days (although I do like a little aspiration mixed in). Captain Hammer was an extremely stereotypical character, with only a tiny amount of depth showing through at the end, and Horrible… well. Incredibly sympathetic, and somehow that got me past the point where he thought destroying society would be a good thing. He a bit crazy. So if you look at it in the light that there are no positive portrayals of anyone in this thing – geeks with vlogs, strong heroic guys, fangirls, newscasters, horses… I’d say Penny is the most aspirational and in many ways strongest character there.
That the one character who stands for truth and light dies is not a cop-out, it is not even that classically Joss – but it is the necessary end for any tragedy as bleak as this is.
Oh – and I don’t know about others, but I don’t see Joss as a demi-god. I like his work, true enough, but I have had plenty of problems before and I’m sure will again (please, nobody mention Wesley and Fred in the same sentence…). Just… not this time. It’s not a question of overlooking the flaws and liking it anyway, I just either am focusing on something entirely different in the piece, or I’m seeing it differently somehow to most of you, it seems. I dunno.
skittledog(Quote) (Reply)
I don’t know about your assessment. On the one hand everything you’re saying about character development is true, but on the other hand, isn’t it often the case that character development in a love triangle is lopsided?
It tends, (in my experience) to naturally gravitate towards either the odd one out, the two competitors, or one of the two competitors, but very rarely focuses on all three. This is especially true in short formats.
In this case, the Penny character happened to be the passive one, but I think someone had to be. Considering the feuding egos, there just wasn’t room for another outlandish character. I don’t find it a particularly egregious lapse for a passive character to happen to be a woman, and in the case of Whedon, it really is just happenstance.
The Chemist(Quote) (Reply)
I thought the same thing at first: great show, but boring gender roles. But then I realised that Joss Whedon has earned the right to use a few gender stereotypes. In the world of the media, yes, Penny was a cop-out. In the world of Joss Whedon, however, she was a actually a shift from the norm.
La Snare(Quote) (Reply)
I think you have good points, however, given that Joss Whedon’s body of work includes very strong and well developed female characters already, I would think that it’s a bit unfair to be expecting him to veer in this direction in every project he does.
You noted that its not just because you are holding Joss at a higher standard, but that every story should have this.
I think that in this particular story, Joss wanted to focus on Dr. Horrible and his character development. Sadly that did not include a very well developed female character, but including one would just detract from this particular story. I agree that Penny was just a device, but then again, so was Cpt Hammer. This story was about Dr. Horrible.
It’s perfect the way it is.
Mike(Quote) (Reply)
Heh. I have two commenters on my own rewrite of the ending trying to tell me that having Penny live and fight against both Hammer and Horrible and their worldviews would be “unoriginal” as opposed to the stunning originality of the umpteenth instance of the WiR, and that there simply would be no other way for Horrible to learn his karmic lesson except via her death – like having to deal every day with the fact that no, she really DOESN”T like “the real you” at all now that she’s seen your bloodymindedness wouldn’t be an even more painful and object lesson…
I guess we shouldn’t hold it against any of them – Joss included? – given that they really don’t have any models of women being anything other than Campbellian/Gravesian Precious Vessels who die to inspire, or are won by their victorious Alter-Ego-Boys…
bellatrys(Quote) (Reply)
J. Early –
Perhaps a more clever ending, would have been for Dr. Horrible and Captain Hammer to discover that it isn’t the battle over a woman at play in this love triangle, as both consciously assumed, but something more profound, buried in the subconcious, that being their own hidden homosexual feelings for each other. The two men should have dumped Penny and fallen in love with each other.
Hah, I put that in my alternate ending! You can’t tell me that exchange between Hammer and Horrible in the laundromat door wasn’t totally slashy – and foreshadowed by the whole “YOU’RE not my nemesis, beat it!” scene at the beginning. Not to mention that this sort of subtext is pretty much a given in comics with their Constant Rivals story arcs – Luthor & Supes, Joker & Bats, Magneto & Xavier, to the point that sometimes it’s just acknowledged by the creators any more.
In fact, you could have a musical number entitled “Foe-Yay!” – a Busby Berkely-style dance extravaganza with all the heroes/heroines and villains/villainesses of the setting exchanging partners, going corps-a-corps, while they sing about the UST that is generated by constantly fighting over…well, what *are* they fighting about, except precedence amongst themselves? Kind of like an old royal court…
Someone could probably do a Restoration Tragicomedy entitled The Constant Rivals, too, about the social lives of the caped set, satirizing the genre along those lines, kind of like a Misanthrope/Malfi mashup.
bellatrys(Quote) (Reply)
J. Earley,
I’ve been thinking about Penny’s last line, and I can’t buy it as her being oblivious to the end about Captain Hammer, since that would directly contradict what came before. Someone up above mentioned that Penny, having seen Captain Hammer as the jerk he is, might still see him as someone good at saving the day. I’m wondering if perhaps she might have just been trying to reassure Billy Buddy.
S. A. Bonasi(Quote) (Reply)
Just as a note, J. Earley, I would have liked to have read this thread without spoilers for Batman.
That said:
I’ve read a lot of folks saying “This is Joss, and thus obviously he meant X.” I have to admit, I’m a fan of “the author is dead.” Would you be giving this an “obviously it’s satire/play off the tropes/strong female character with layers” if it wasn’t Joss Whedon?
It doesn’t really matter, in the grand scheme of things, what Joss meant. It matters a lot what he got across. What he got across to me is that Penny was a toy that the boys fought over until she broke. I enjoyed the rewatch when I randomly decided Penny was a robot.
It’s less than 45 minutes to get across a storyline. I wasn’t expecting deep meaningful characters, but Penny was a plot point, not a character, and that’s where I get irritated.
There are far too many stories like this for me to buy that this was satire. If he had reversed the genders and had two women fighting over Peter it would have looked a lot more like a satire or a play off the tropes to me. (And then we could have a discussion about how women ‘fighting’ over a man is shown in mainstream media – ‘catfight’ anyone?)
Anna(Quote) (Reply)
I’m glad to see that someone else was thinking the same thing I was. As soon as I was processing the plot in my head, I thought to myself, “Wow, this was really classic ‘Women in Refrigerator’ treatment, and I’m a little surprised that Whedon didn’t notice.”
I, like some of the other posters here, considered that it might be intended as satirical, but I really think it’d be a stretch to claim it as such. The whole punch of the story is “look how Doctor Horrible was affected by Penny’s death!”, and that’s not a satire of WiR, that’s textbook WiR. (Although I think it does dip into satirizing the trend with the newspaper headline.)
So, count me in as a “yep, you’re right”, and as it being a bit of a disappointment in an otherwise fun story.
John Seavey(Quote) (Reply)
I’ll quickly repeat the basics. It’s a parody. It’s the hero’s journey told through the eyes of a sympathetic villain. He looks like he might be redeemable, but Dr Horrible really is a jerk deep down.
At the end of Episode II, I expected in Ep III for Dr Horrible to realize what a stupid life he was getting into, probably because he felt silly doing it in front of Penny. So bravo Joss, you kept up the suspense and surprises. Instead the story fell back into genre norms.
I was really surprised by Penny’s last line. What I expected was for her to provide a last second critique of the genre that had killed her. I thought she’d voice the viewers’ disappointment with both Hammer and Horrible. “Oh my God, you’re both idiots!” That could’ve finished Horrible’s character arc just as well as what she did say.
I think he did successfully subvert and ridicule genre standards. It was a Coen Brothers type of mocking. Everyone’s pathetic. Hero an empty shirt. The villain will do anything to join the (ahem) cool crowd. Girl observer rejects genre trap, then runs back in. It was a let down, but in a surprisingly memorable way. I’m here typing because I can’t stop thinking about it.
Gene Ha(Quote) (Reply)
One thing: please everyone read the following before commenting further:
Satire: a literary work holding up human vices and follies to ridicule or scorn
Parody: a literary or musical work in which the style of an author or work is closely imitated for comic effect or in ridicule
These two words are commonly used as synonyms, but they’re not. Satire makes fun of people; parody makes fun of fiction. So if you say it’s a “satire”, then what you’re saying is that Whedon really thinks women are dumb idealists who fall for bad guys and never, ever get a clue and he’s making fun of them. If what you mean is that he’s making fun of other FILMAKERS for putting across that message, then that would be “parody.”
Okay, I misunderstood. This is cool, too – I’m seeing a lot of reads on this story around the web, and it’s all valid.
??
That is almost exactly what she said:
See here for more on the topic of how love triangles screw over women characters.
See above regarding the different between “parody” and “satire”. I’ll give YOU the benefit of the doubt and assume you meant “parodist” rather than satirist.
I don’t think anyone’s arguing it wasn’t INTENDED as parody – his intent is not relevant (see Anna’s comment). Some are arguing it doesn’t work. And whether it works is NOT up to the audience. It’s up to the writer.
But hey – maybe Whedon’s “intent” was to get everybody debating. In which case, it worked beautifully.
This statement is incredibly ironic. Hollywood WANTS stereotypes. Because Whedon’s refused to submit to some of the key stereotypes ever since he was a story editor on Roseanne, it’s probably held back his career. If anything, the fact that he’s still making TV and movies shows he’s earned the right to ignore/break even MORE stereotypes.
I do think it most likely his intent here was to PARODY stereotypes, not get lazy and succumb to them.
Anna, sorry I didn’t catch the spoiler before – I’ve put a highlight on it.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Thanks, BetaCandy – both for the spoilertag and the definition of parody vs satire. I meant satire in my earlier comment.
I think folks forget that Joss has, on more than one occasion, been very tone-deaf to how things have come across in some of his work – see: Fastest Way To Die In Very White Sunndale Is To Be Black & Gosh, Is There Still A Dead/Evil Lesbian Cliche?
I mean, I don’t think he woke up and thought “A hah! I will write a story where a nice white lady dies in order for the menz to have character development!” I think he woke up and thought “Hey, cool origin story – with singing! And cowboys! Yes!”
And then just… forgot how many (male) origin stories are told over the bodies of women. The same he forgot the dearth of lesbians on t.v. when Tara was murdered and Willow went evil. The same way he didn’t notice that Sunndale had a race issue. I think he’s thoughtless, not malicious.
Critiquing the work doesn’t mean Joss is a bad person, or that there’s something wrong with folks who like what we’re critiquing. I mean, I fully intend to buy the soundtrack the second it’s available because it’s awesome.
But Penny is dead so that Dr Horrible could feel bad. And I find that irritating.
Anna(Quote) (Reply)
Why, exactly? I mean, isn’t this the plot of every tragedy ever? Okay, Shakespeare killed everyone so we all felt bad, but it’s still a very classic device whoever the victim is.
Thoughtless? Maybe. But in filming a story you have to give characters genders and ethnicities and sexual preferences, and it seems pretty inevitable to me that once you’ve done that any perceived mistreatment of the character will anger anybody who shares those categories. Normally, there’s a bigger cast to smooth some of these out (I would not like Inara much if she were the only woman in Firefly, nor River) – this was teensy. Okay so maybe that means you should take even more care but… yes, she’s a device. They’re all devices. It’s fiction with a message.
Actually, I only dropped by here to share the thought that I am edging towards a different interpretation of Penny’s last line (which is the only thing that bugs me even in the least, since it seems so pointless): really, why isn’t this a joke? Just because she doesn’t get to smile at it… I mean, what she’s saying is “it’s okay, I have shards of death ray in my vital organs and you’re apparently an anarchist sociopath, but the guy who just wants to brag to the world about his sex life will make it all better…”? I can, if I want to, see humour and a half-apology for her hero-worship of Hammer in that line. It’s a nice thought, at least.
I promise to shush now…
skittledog(Quote) (Reply)
Anna, ditto to pretty much everything you’ve said.
I also wanted to add that I do think there was some subversion of general expectations in not having Dr. Horrible end up redeemed by the glowing power of the love of a truly good and pure woman, possibly as she dies, which is pretty damn common in Hollywood as well. Having him end up “evil” – and really, jaded and bitter and thinking if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em – did make something of a statement. It just wasn’t a feminist one (which is fine, but then it’s also fine for me to point out that while in the process of making that point, it’s not necessary to get unfeminist).
Someone mentioned Wash’s death above, and suggested that it’s very similar to Penny’s because of a) the skewering and b) the nice, sweet nature of each of their characters. I can see how this story certainly fits in to a “niceness gets skewered by the world” kind of message, but there is a very, very big difference between those two deaths, and it is the central point of this post: Wash’s death had an impact on the audience primarily because of Wash, the character we had come to know and love. Penny’s death has an impact on the audience and on the story because of Dr. Horrible and the impact it has on him. Yes, we saw Zoe grieving Wash, and it was damn effective as a way to show us something about her, but that’s not the only reason he died, and it’s not the only thing that showed us all that stuff about Zoe.
And finally, as Betacandy, Anna and others have said, I just do not believe that there is a way to earn the feminist “cred” to just cash in, sit back and say “think I’ll forget to think about gender/race/sexuality in this one”. Whedon has certainly earned the “cred” (from me, and I assume from many others on this thread) to have us look past our disappointment with this musical and watch anything and everything he produces from here on in, but I find the idea that there’s an “anti-sexism” bank that one can use to trade on stereotypes or harmful cliches to be pretty darned offensive, actually. It sounds an awful lot like saying “well, you can’t expect a guy to treat women (characters) like they’re relevant and human and complex and just as interesting as men all the time can you?”
Purtek(Quote) (Reply)
Here’s Whedon’s take: from the Washington Post:
I like how he handles criticism. I see this as acknowledging the criticisms have validity and that he, the creator, is not perfect, but not getting into much detail so as to avoid accidentally pissing anybody off with a slightly ill-chosen word – or the press’ notorious “quote taken out of context.”
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
bellatrys,
A big WORD to this. A female character biting the dust is NOT the only way ever for a male character to develop in a story. Sometimes it’s not the appropriate or strongest choice. Yet it’s become a stock plot point, a lazy short hand that writers use instead of having to put work into coming up with an original catalysis for the male character’s development.
S. A. Bonasi(Quote) (Reply)
Just a smallish comment–while I generally agree that it would have been nice to have Penny be more developed, I do want to point out that she didn’t die ‘so that Dr. Horrible could feel bad’. She died so that Dr. Horrible could get into the ELE. Bad Horse told him to kill someone, and he tried to make that be Captain Hammer, but it ended up being Penny. That’s the irony in the last song. (Also note that Penny was safely hidden until Horrible sang about her, and she stood up.) Basically, her death was the whole point of the story, so much so that if she didn’t die, it’d have to be re-written basically from scratch. Not that it couldn’t have been better had they done so, of course, but at least it wasn’t an arbitrary choice to give the ending some zing; it was integral to the story’s structure.
Lucian Smith(Quote) (Reply)
I’m pretty sure everyone here watched the show, Lucian Smith.
And the idea that the show was all written just so Penny could die doesn’t actually improve anything. It’s still two boys fighting over a toy until it broke, so one could be Evil and the other could be shown up as a coward. It’s still WiR.
Anna(Quote) (Reply)
I do want to point out that she didn’t die ’so that Dr. Horrible could feel bad’.
Lucian, when we say that “she died because” we’re talking about the meta, the storytelling reason, not the in-story reason. Which is the thing you admit in the next breath (“Basically, her death was the whole point of the story”) – we’re just arguing that a) it wasn’t the only way that Hammer’s arc could have been told, – somebody ELSE could have died equally ironically (the boy in his Fan Club, frex), and he could have lost Penny thru it (she realizing that he *meant* his “cut the head off” slip earlier and wanting nothing to do with him) because it wasn’t PENNY’s death specifically that Bad Horse demanded, just A death – so the ONLY reason to make it Penny was to make for Horrible’s Manpain; b) it was EXACTLY the cliche WiR arc that is ALWAYS told about The Chick, and we expect better of Joss – possibly mistakenly.
bellatrys(Quote) (Reply)
Nah, S.A. Bonasi, I’ve changed my mind. Frex, Sonia should have TOTALLY been run over by a cart on her way to or from work, thus motivating Rodion to give up his proto-Objectivist views and turn himself in out of his Great Manpain (plus the whole girl-had-sex-and-dies thing, how could this go wrong?) – instead of her arguing with him about the nature of right and wrong and justice and love for pages and pages, and ultimately coming to the conclusion that she needed to stop being passive and making excuses in her own life, too. That would have been WAY more angsty and Made Of Awesome, but silly old Dostoyevsky just didn’t understand how to write psychological drama and suspense, yanno?
bellatrys(Quote) (Reply)
Lucian Smith,
I disagree. Firstly, Anna is correct. Central-to-the-story WiR is still WiR. But secondly, I don’t agree that the story would have to be “re-written basically from scratch” if Penny didn’t die. The story would have worked just as well if the final act had played out, for instance, with Dr. Horrible killing Captain Hammer (thus getting him into the Evil League of League) only to have Captain Hammer’s death motivate Penny into becoming a super-hero and Dr. Horrible’s archnemesis, with her still helping the homeless, of course. The tragedy – that Dr. Horrible gets what he wants but losses why he wanted it in the first place – would still remain. That’s hardly a rewrite “from scratch”.
bellatrys,
Totally!
What story is that from, by the way? I don’t think I’ve ever read any Dostoyevsky, but it sounds like perhaps I should check them out.
S. A. Bonasi(Quote) (Reply)
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