If anything makes women hate men, it’s not feminism: it’s patriarchy
I’m dumbfounded every time I see someone blame feminism for making women into “man-haters”. Not just because it’s untrue - personally, I’ve never met a feminist who hated men - but because the only women I’ve known who hate men are women who buy into patriarchal beliefs.
It’s misogynistic men and women who claim:
- Men can’t be faithful. Just not in their nature.
- Men are violent. That just is in their nature.
- If sufficiently teased, well of course a man’s going to rape a woman. But that’s her fault.
And the more subtle variations:
- Men are simple-minded compared to women (though this is really often a backhanded way of saying women are sneaky and manipulative).
- Men just don’t have the patience that all women (of course!) have for dealing with kids.
- Men don’t have parenting instincts, which is why they shouldn’t be expected to parent much.
All of these claims are intended as excuses for bad male behavior (which is not excused in females). But growing up with no good male role models and only one good female one, I came to the conclusion that most men were big, dumb sociopaths, and most women were morons for putting up with them.
It was through feminism that I began to recognize how much social programming goes into making men and women behave stupidly. Just as women are conditioned to accept men who commit adultery, light their farts on fire and lose their own kids when they get distracted by a dog with a fluffy tail, men are conditioned to expect less of themselves every time they get a free pass for doing something wrong or stupid. Feminism is not a replacement mindset for patriarchy, which tells you what to think via media mouthpieces and politicians: feminism involves thinking critically, which is why there are such a variety of contradictory opinions among feminists.
Patriarchy is monolithic. No free thinking allowed. You must accept the precept that men are this and women are that. If you don’t like what men “are”, then you don’t like men and - ironically - you get banished to the imaginary feminist camp that exists only in the minds of patriarchal thinkers. Those are the “feminists” they have in mind when they talk about feminists hating on men: women who’ve bought into the patriarchal assertions about men, but not absorbed the lesson that they’re somehow supposed to respect men while simultaneously holding low standards for them. Those are the women who are in danger of concluding men really are just lesser beings.
Feminism, based on critical thinking, does allow you to question patriarchal assertions about men - both the ones I listed in bullet point and the ones that say they’re superior to women all the same. It almost renders impossible the ability to believe in any sweeping generalizations about gender, because most of them don’t stand up to even the most cursory bit of analysis.
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15 comments
This tract really deserves to be distributed on street corners.
I’ll put it on Digg, and then you can vote for it (just need to set up an email login - free). If it takes off in their system, that’s like distributing it on digital street corners.
[...] with Everybody Loves Raymond, I’d describe it as your typical updated 1950’s sitcom, featuring the patriarchy’s favorite kind of guy - a bumbling, buffoonish, insensate husband - and its favorite kind of woman, too -Â a wife who [...]
I don’t see feminism fighting for real gender equality. It is still common ideology that men are supposed to always defend and die for women. Or that a man is supposed to always be the bread winner and must always have a job or he isn’t a “real” man. After all men are expected to suffer social abuse on the job and outside in order to bring home profit for the family.
Maybe when feminism grows up and focuses on gender issues on both sides of which it aggravates through cultural change then maybe people would embody it more. But so far, it is a one sided blind argument. And yes, many women that call themselves feminist hate men or at least constantly bash men in general in order to simply leverage leadership roles for themselves.
Until feminism starts focusing on gender issues on both sides and including men it will always be seen as attacking and hostile to men, nor inclusive to their suffering or needs.
You say “feminism” isn’t fighting for gender equality, then blame it for several ideas patriarchy started that centuries ago. Feminists are AGAINST all three of the things you mentioned there, and you don’t know that, and yet you criticize. You’re just making a fool of yourself.
That’s exactly what I’m doing and what the feminists I work with are doing. Again, you just don’t seem to know what the hell you’re talking about, yet feel entitled to an opinion.
Good luck with that!
[...] on the Hathor Feminism site, I wrote an article called If anything makes women hate men, it’s not feminism: it’s patriarchy. In a nutshell, I argued that patriarchy puts out a lot of ugly messages about what cheating, [...]
[troll]Oh yes, lets continue blaming the patrioarchy, and the communists, and the terrorists, and the boogey man. Tired arguments. No one is buying it except for the radical core of feminists. Fortunately, they are increasingly becoming the minority, as well as the favorite targets of conservatives and christians. Women have equal rights in this country, and they don’t have to enter into selective service and fight for this country or die for it as standard practice. Father’s get slammed in family court every day, losing custody of their children and paying out the ass for years in alimony and child support, the latter which the mother does not have to prove she actually spent on the children. Women can falsely accuse men of rape and face no penalties, as evidenced in the Duke Lacross rape case (lying under oath is a felony). Many men recognize they have no rights when it comes to reproduction or parenting and will be assumed guilty if a woman accuses him of anything. The percentage of homes with married couples with children are in the minority for the first time. This trend will continue. Feminists hate men and spend all their time trying to prove we are nothing but beasts. The rhetoric is hate cleaverly disguised as greater victimization. You’re all victims of society and the patriarch, which of course is a well known organization like the KKK. Or is it a hidden/shadow sort of thing? Or are you literally saying “shoot your Dad”? That poor son of a bitch. Factory work was so gratifying, so much so he tried to keep your Mom out of it so he could have all the fun himself.
Claiming that you’re trying to help men is laughable. Do you honestly believe men are buying it? Good luck with that! (Seriously, because no man will buy it.)
Well, I know you’re going to use this to further prove your point that all men are evil, stupid, masogynist pigs who get off on beating women, so let me just close by saying:
Mee no can know better, me just caveman. Neander tol. Me maso-gn-ist. Ugh Ugh. There, I spinned it for you. You’re welcome.
Oh, and happy editing.
Troll comment disemvoweled.
Awesome.
For the record, I rarely comment over here because I find myself just nodding along in agreement.
“ “I don’t see feminism fighting for real gender equality. It is still common ideology that men are supposed to always defend and die for women. Or that a man is supposed to always be the bread winner and must always have a job or he isn’t a “real” man. After all men are expected to suffer social abuse on the job and outside in order to bring home profit for the family.”
“You say “feminism” isn’t fighting for gender equality, then blame it for several ideas patriarchy started that centuries ago. Feminists are AGAINST all three of the things you mentioned there, and you don’t know that, and yet you criticize. You’re just making a fool of yourself.”
I think what Darren Times is trying to saying is there are a lot of “men’s issues just as there are “women’s issue” such as paternity fraud (in the last 2 years over 11 states passed paternity fraud laws), unfair divorcé courts (mothers get sole legal custody over 90% sole custody instead of joint custody), C.D.C. and N.I.H. both report the average woman is heather then the average man and lives just under 7 years longer yet there is a federal Office of Women’s Health which receives millions of dollars per year for the government but no office of men’s health ect… I could list more, but the point is if someone is interested in equality, then it doesn’t matter who put these laws in to practice, only that they are unfair. Men at 18 must register for the draft or forfeit government grants, scholarships, and loans, and cannot apply for government jobs to name a few women do not. Is that sexist? Yes. Does it matter how the law came to be? No it should not.
However I have never seen Feminist’s march on Washington demanding that women be required to register for the draft (or demand that men not be required) or demand shared parenting. As a matter of fact when then Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld announced the Pentagon was thinking of starting up the draft again, N.O.W. Insisted women not be drafted.
“That’s exactly what I’m doing and what the feminists I work with are doing. Again, you just don’t seem to know what the hell you’re talking about, yet feel entitled to an opinion.”
Again I have heard this assertion many times as well, yet every time I ask specifically what feminist have done on men’s issues I usually get an answer such as naming a number of women’s issue that they has either be resolved or are currently working on and say “Doesn’t these advancements for women help men?” but are unable to tell me an issue where men are decimated (such as the draft) where feminist have fought to change that. In fact it has been my experience that feminist are unaware of most, if not all, the issue’s facing men much less attempted to address them. Can you name any issues facing men that feminist have fought for?
Sorry if this turned out to be long.
However I have never seen Feminist’s march on Washington demanding that women be required to register for the draft (or demand that men not be required) or demand shared parenting.
Then you don’t know your history. Opponents of the Equal Rights Amendment objected to the fact that it would make the current draft laws invalid and the gov would either have to apply draft regulations to women as well as men, or drop them for everyone. Feminists were for the ERA; conservatives were against it. Once again, you guys are demonstrating that you just don’t know history, and assume feminism caused these problems that patriarchy caused.
FWIW, I have always advocated equality in draft, but I think the draft should be done away with, period. It’s too much for a country to force its citizens to murder in its name, especially given how classist the current system is (rich boys getting off, poor boys having to serve unless they can make themselves fugitives, which is not a much preferable option).
And why would feminists demand shared parenting? 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 7 boys are molested before the age of 16 in this sick country, and a lot of parents are responsible for that. Shared parenting guarantees the kids will be at the mercy of abusive parents at least some of the time. I’m not in favor of judges assuming women should be parents because that’s what women are for, but OTOH if they look at it statistically, fathers are more likely to abuse and neglect kids.
You want to know what feminism has done to help men. Men are no longer expected to do the breadwinning for the whole family. Feminism also tried to readjust culture - which I’d argue is more important than law, as culture dictates law - so men could express their feelings instead of bottling up rage and depression and dying younger from the physical strain of repression. It’s not feminism that caused men to reject that and continue on with the status quo - that was patriarchy. Feminism has pushed to ensure that birth control options and abortion are available to women so that men as well as women need not be saddled with unwanted children. Feminism has pushed various levels of government to take care of battered women and children, which should be convenient for those family members, including male ones, who cannot or prefer not to shelter an abused relative from a crazed psycho.
The problem is, you’re looking for feminism to march for something that’s overtly for men. To understand its contributions, you need to consider how the problems that affect women ALSO AFFECT MEN, and therefore fixing them fixes inequalities for everyone.
Check out Susan Faludi’s influential book Stiffed for a great exposition of what patriarchy has done to men that feminism has tried to fix. The fact that patriarchy has stopped feminism from fixing it can’t be held against feminists; we’re a small movement fighting an entrenched system. That we’ve made any headway is amazing. If more men listened and understood and realized that maybe your dog-eat-dog system is why you live fewer years than we do, that maybe your emotional repression is why men lash out in anger, etc. etc., you might see how feminism really is trying to improve the world for everyone.
“And why would feminists demand shared parenting? 1 in 4 girls and 1 in 7 boys are molested before the age of 16 in this sick country, and a lot of parents are responsible for that.”
Children do get molested in this country. But the facts are, and there irrefutable, the over whelmingly vast majority of both mothers and yes father s are kind caring loving parent’s. The vast majority of children are not molested or abused. Should not that be evaluated on a case by case basis rather than saying to men you cannot have joint custody of your children just because you are a man?
Why should feminist demand shared parenting? Because it would be considered equal, therefore there would be equality.
“You want to know what feminism has done to help men. Men are no longer expected to do the breadwinning for the whole family. “
I would have to respectfully disagree. Men are still expected to be the bread winner. The 2000 census showed 5.5 million women where a stay at home parent as opposed to 157,000 men. According to the U.S. Labor Department the average women takes 10 years out of her working careers to have and raise children. The average woman who works outside the home, work 41 hours for week. That’s 8 hours a day, Monday through Friday with and extra hour on Friday. The average man work 52 hours a week, that’s 8 hours a day Monday though Friday, a full 8 hours on Saturday and 4 hours on Sunday.
“To understand its contributions, you need to consider how the problems that affect women ALSO AFFECT MEN, and therefore fixing them fixes inequalities for everyone.”
Thank you! That is my point. If problems that affect women, also affect men and thereby fixing those problems helps men as well as women, then wouldn’t the reverse be true? Problems that affect men also affect women, and there for fixing those problem will not only help men but also help women?
“The problem is, you’re looking for feminism to march for something that’s overtly for men.”
Exactly! When this country passed the civil rights laws it said you cannot discriminated against anyone. They didn’t say we will make it illegal to discriminate blacks and Asians first and when they are no longer be discrimination against them, after they are no longer discriminated against, then we will stop discrimination against Hispanics and Jews, then Muslims and middle eastern ect…” They rightly realized that to end discrimination you had to stop all forms of it everywhere. And that’s the same with equality. If you want complete equality for everyone then everyone has to work for equality for everyone and not say “When women are equal to men in all things then we will work for equality for men.” That’s why I am so disappointed. I thought when feminist said they would work for equality for everyone, I thought they would work for equality everyone overtly.”
Again I apologize for the length of my response.
Should not that be evaluated on a case by case basis rather than saying to men you cannot have joint custody of your children just because you are a man?
That was my point. That if you push for SHARED parenting, you guarantee the abused child ends up with its abuser part-time, whichever parent that is. Every case needs to be evaluated without gender bias. And frankly, I’m very much against biological parents getting preferential treatment over others who want to take custody of a child. Many children have two shits for parents, and if they’re lucky enough to have a family member or family friend who wants to raise them, for heaven’s sake give the kid a chance. Screw the “parent’s rights.”
Men are still expected to be the bread winner. The 2000 census showed 5.5 million women where a stay at home parent as opposed to 157,000 men.
But that’s because they’re still siding with patriarchy. If more men had joined the feminist cause, you might actually have more options now.
AGAIN, DON’T BLAME FEMINISM FOR WHAT THE PATRIARCHY STARTED. Honestly, it’s like talking to a brick wall.
If problems that affect women, also affect men and thereby fixing those problems helps men as well as women, then wouldn’t the reverse be true? Problems that affect men also affect women, and there for fixing those problem will not only help men but also help women?
No, the reverse is not true. Helping a less privileged group does help the privileged group, but helping the privileged group does nothing to help the less privileged.
“When women are equal to men in all things then we will work for equality for men.”
This is nonsensical. “When X is equal to Y, then we’ll work on making Y equal to X.” If they’re equal, they’re equal.
Let women serve in the military = less men being drafted in times of draft.
Let women work and earn like men = men who want it have a shot at being stay at home dads.
Etc.
I don’t think you’re serious. You don’t even make sense within your own remarks, so I think you’re just doing this to see how many more times I’ll respond. Note: this is the last time.
“I don’t think you’re serious. You don’t even make sense within your own remarks, so I think you’re just doing this to see how many more times I’ll respond.”
No I just think I did a very good job of explaining what I trying to say and for that I apologize. My shared parenting question for example. What I meant to say was I believe that shared parenting should be the standard in a divorce, unlike now where custody is given to the “primary care giver” in the house hold which in most cases the mother is almost always viewed as being. I didn’t mean to suggest that custody should automatically be given without review. As a matter of fact I agree with you that in a divorce, whom ever gets custody should never come down to the “lesser of the two evils”. If nether parents is fit, neither should have custody.
“If more men had joined the feminist cause, you might actually have more options now.”
I’m not happy with a lot of what’s happening in the country in many different areas and would like to find a way to change it. This is one of the reasons I’m here. I personally like to find out about any organization (rather political, charity’s, or volunteer) before I commit my time, energy or money to it ((which I believe most Americans do, which I’m sure you did before you became a feminist). That is what I am trying to do in this case. I have done my very best to be polite and respectful with my questions (As I know some of these are topics are very sensitive to many people). And I hope that is how I have come across. However if you want men (or women) to join a feminist group, I don’t believe it’s unfair if they ask questions to understand the organization better. And what question will they ask? Questions about things they already know or things they already agree with? Or will it be about things they don’t know or understand?
Again I apologize if I have offended anyone here. It was not my intention. Out of respect for everyone, I discontinue coming to this site if it will make anyone feel better. ?
First of all, there’s no single organization called “Feminism.” There used to be some fairly organized groups, but unfortunately that’s all gone now.
There are a lot of different views within feminism about how to fix things, just as there are a crazy number of different kinds of Christians whose beliefs can even contradict one another’s. The only thing feminists widely agree on is that women are equal to men in terms of capabilities and value, and therefore should be equal in terms of opportunity.
There is no grand organized movement for fixing everything. There are various small movements centered on fixing certain things. You can’t simply join feminism or not; it’s a label you can adopt or not. You can even be an ally without adopting the label. There are many options here.
Now that I understand what you meant by shared parenting, I have another problem with what you’re saying. Men invented a system in which women took care of the kids whether they wanted to or not, and men went off to work whether they wanted to or not. Now men don’t want their lack of connection to their kids taken into account when divorce happens. To which I say: maybe men should’ve thought about this when they set up the system.
But they didn’t, and you know why? They didn’t ever foresee women not being property, exchanged from father to husband through marriage. They didn’t foresee women stepping up and deciding to leave abusive marriages, unsatisfying marriages, marriages betrayed by men who didn’t keep their vows. When this started to happen, men at first didn’t make a stink. By at first, I mean about 30 years. Men didn’t want kids. You were lucky if you could convince Dad to visit them twice a year, let alone pay support or anything. Men were too busy hiding their assets so child support couldn’t be collected, while they went off to find the next Mrs. So and So. They thought this would teach those bitches, and the bitches would stop leaving their husbands, no matter what the husbands did.
But it didn’t. Women kept right on leaving when they weren’t satisfied.
And then guess what? Suddenly in the 90s, men allegedly wanted their kids! I say allegedly because I think the vast majority of them just want to use the kids to punish the mothers.
For the minority who really did want their kids, and the minority whose wives were actually child abusers, this was a disaster - but again, you have to blame men who use divorce courts as a way to punish women, not feminists whose only goal was to free men and women from the shackles of bad marriages. In fact, feminism’s push for women to earn their own livings has had the side effect of virtually freeing men from alimony, which is rare compared to years ago.
But I’m not sure what you want from judges here. I don’t think they should go in with ANY predisposition, toward primary caregivers or biological parents or anything - just analyze each case to guess what the best situation for the kid is. But the system we have now is not “unfair to men.” It’s “unfair to people.” And most importantly it’s unfair to kids.
Honestly, I also have to say when I’ve read forums where men go on about this shit, I see tons and tons of “ME ME ME” before I ever get to “and my kid suffered.” That’s unfortunately a really good example of the sort of narcissism our society fosters in men, teaching them it’s all about them, and what’s good for them will trickle down and be good for the women and kids somehow. Any man who is sincere about wanting a better custody system should be primarily concerned about the kids, not himself.
And he should be ranting at men who put themselves first, men who use divorce courts and kids to punish ex-wives, and men who created the system for the purpose of not having to raise kids so they could go off to (what they considered) more interesting pursuits - not feminists who are trying to fix a problem for people who are still considered property in some ways (example: many state laws have not been updated from back when rape was a property crime against men who owned women, not a crime against a human being).