Men in feminism
I find myself a little bit conflicted by my reaction to feminist men/feminist allies. We have a couple of great men who write here, and by no means do I intend to belittle their contributions or those of other men who are actively involved in feminist work. Not only do I think that power imbalance is destructive to everyone (though not in equal measure), I think it goes without saying that such an imbalance can’t be fought by women alone. So it’s not a question of whether men belong in feminist discussions or activism (though it’s not unreasonable to question in what ways and in which spaces).
The conflict I feel is in my reaction. I feel like I’m still inclined to swoon a little at men who ‘get it’, which means I’m still participating in the system that gives men extra credit for basically not being total assholes. If equality and the absence of oppression are not up for debate, then anything less than support for feminism (and other anti-oppression activism) is pure jerkery. So I very much want to encourage men to challenge their own assumptions, to recognize and speak out against sexism, and to contribute to feminist work, and I want to help any tentatively supportive men find ways to do so. But, for the sake of really getting at the roots of my own gender-based assumptions, I also want to stop myself from treating it as unexpected and deserving of gold-star status.
Perhaps even more importantly, I’m extremely frustrated that even (and perhaps especially) with respect to feminism, male voices are more relevant than female ones. If a woman challenges someone on an everyday sexist comment, a lot of people find it easy to dismiss her as shrill, bitchy, or as having a ‘victim complex’, but a man challenging the same comment is given more credence. I may be wrong, but I suspect male feminists/allies rarely encounter the eye-rolls and ‘oh, you’re one of those‘ reactions that I get on a regular basis. Male public figures who say something against sexism are newsworthy (which is part of the gold star swoon factor I described above) and so garner attention to the same things that are not noteworthy when said by women because they’re expected (and therefore whining, self-centred, or still beating that old, now irrelevant feminist drum). Thus yet again, the male voices get more power than the female ones. It’s tempting to want to use that extra power, because it helps with some practical measures of progress, but it comes from the exact foundation that we’re ultimately trying to fight, so we would have to simultaneously use it and challenge it.
It’s important to show men all the ways in which feminism, breaking confining gender boundaries, and equality are beneficial to society as a whole, and it’s important to encourage and appreciate the men who work against sexism. But it’s also important to fight situations in which male voices are given more credence than female ones, especially when what those men are doing is quoting women who were ignored when they said it in the first place. Personally, I still struggle to do either, in many cases, let alone both at once.
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This is a great post, and I think I need to reflect on it for a while before I’ll have all my reactions processed.
I don’t think I “swoon” at male feminists anymore. I’m happy to meet them and I try to encourage them. I think there’s some legitimacy to that reaction, because in general it’s harder for men to see the flaws in the patriarchy, since it’s designed to look promising to them. For a woman to notice that patriarchy sucks is not such a huge accomplishment.
For most of my life, I’ve tended to dismiss women who don’t get the need for feminism and simply fail to notice men who don’t get the need for it. I’m finally starting to lose patience with EVERY individual who doesn’t see the need for feminism and every other movement that seeks to remake the world into something where gender, color and other random factors do not impact the value of anyone’s life negatively or positively.
I think it’s very important that female feminists (a) stop being overly critical of women who love the patriarchy, as if being women, they owe it to us to know better and (b) stop feeling neutral about men who love the patriarchy. If that means standing against the vast, vast majority of men and a smaller majority of women… well, who told you this was going to be easy? Commit, or there’s the door.
[...] Comments Despite the conflict I feel around over-crediting male feminists (as I discussed over in my post over at the Hathor feminism site), I must admit that I loved this story on Don McPherson posted at [...]
I rather enjoyed reading this posting; I must say that I relate to it in a not-exactly sort of way and it’s always nice to see one’s own confusions given some validation, however indirect, through someone else expressing the same concern.
Firstly, I definitely agree that whether or not to recognize is a frustrating dilemma. By analogy, what would one do with a student who commonly fails tests and doesn’t bring in homework and suddenly gets a C- on a rather important midterm? The C- is hardly worth trumpets and fanfare, but it’s still above par. And I definitely have no easy solution for that.
However, I find myself agreeing quite a bit with the third paragraph in the first response (by BetaCandy). I think that rather the entire point of gender equality is that it shouldn’t matter what gender someone is; one of the requisites in my head for being qualified as a sane and rational human being is to recognize that discriminating on irrelevant criteria is at the very least really goofy and quite potentially harmful. I understand that I can’t expect everyone to simultaneously have a light-bulb moment and get it all at once… and I also recognize that, whether or not gender *should* matter in understanding the problem, it *does* because it affects one’s background. I suppose in conclusion I would advocate encouraging men who do some part to promote gender equality but not praising them for it unless the contribution is significant.
In reference to the general response incited by men vs. women speaking out for gender equality, I am prone to agree (although I get the sense that some such figures do so more out of narcissim (look, I’m thoughtful!) rather than actual concern). I wonder whether or not, though, the disparity between the responses may be emphasized by the publicity.
On a smaller scope, the rolling of the eyes is still quite common regardless of your gender; I can’t tell you how many times I’ve received it myself in attempting to temper or confront an inappropriate comment that someone has made. One does get a “you’re one of those” sort of response; it just becomes apparent that the category of “those” is slightly different. Most often, it feels like I’m being rejected for rocking the boat: the sense that I’ve just ruined everybody’s fun just a little bit and they don’t feel like anyone was being hurt… so why did I have to complain? Of course, I believe that, indirectly, people were being hurt. But, as I’m sure we all know, it’s kind of hard to explain that in the three seconds that you get before you’re tuned out.
That said, I’m willing to bet that the reaction isn’t nearly as severe. In scenarios where the coworkers with whom I’m speaking are of the frightening “good ol’ boys” mentality, I actually get the opportunity to leverage that very mentality I dislike in order to sway their opinions. I have no compunctions about making use of this leverage, but I have on a number of occasions become frustrated with the perception that I feel they get: that, by speaking out, I am filling my expected role as a protector and that I’ve only just validated their assumptions. Of course I’m protecting, just as I would for anyone in any situation where I think wrong was being done and just as I’d hope would be done for me. But again: three seconds.
As a summary to this long and rambling response: I hear you. It’s a maddening catch-22 that’s inherent to the problem. And thanks, by the way, for bringing it up; it’s reassuring to know that it’s not just me.
It’s reassuring to me, too, to know it’s not just me.
I like the way you put the idea that even though it *shouldn’t* matter, it *does*, because one of the things that we as feminists are trying to get people to recognize is that decisions can’t *ever* be made in a vacuum of gender neutrality (so, for instance, the citation of statistics of how many women choose “nurturing” careers or express a desire to get married in support of gender stereotyping needs to be busted). By pretending that we can, in some way, break out of that mold enough for me not to notice that it is, in this highly gendered world, challenging for men to recognize the problems with that, I’m not giving enough credit to the fact that the system is still there.
This is (as is my wont) getting kind of circularly esoteric, but something about the way you put that made something click for me, so thanks.
Oh, and:
Agreed. And damn does it annoy me.
I’m glad my rambling was helpful.
Honestly, what I would like to see and tend to encourage is that gender *doesn’t* matter[1]. The only reason it does in many people’s decision making is because they seem to hold to a set of peculiar and seemingly arbitrary premises. Frankly, on no level of which I am conscious do I usually even *notice* if people with whom I am dealing are male or female, similar to the way I tend not to notice what color their hair is or whether or not I’ve eaten today (not that I’m advocating that last one) and I find that people tend to react positively to this.
So I suppose I see that vacuum as a goal… but yeah, in the very real and practical sense, explanations of and approaches toward the present cultural situation have to take into consideration the present bizarrity.
Honestly, it almost seems like some sort of weird Rubix cube or something — the solution is circularly dependent on the puzzle. Grah.
[1] Excepting medicinally, of course. It confuses the hell out of me that people assume that I know how a car works because I have a Y chromosome but they don’t print two columns on that little FDA label on the back of all the food. I can’t help but roll my eyes when I see a bottle of iron supplements advertised for women and the nutritional facts say that each tablet contains 150% of the DRA…
When Beta Candy first made the Narcissist Feminism post - http://thehathorlegacy.com/feminism/narcissist-feminism/ - there were a few minutes where it was listed in the latest list, but not available to view. By chance, I was at the site right then, and so couldn’t read it at first.
Which left me wondering what it was about of course. I wondered if it was about this, specifically men feeling entitled to this:
Then I wondered about the comment I made to the Film/TV post about the blandly perfect beauty standards required by Hollywood - http://thehathorlegacy.com/if-male-actors-had-to-be-as-blandly-perfect-as-female-ones/ - and whether that had sparked it off, where I listed a variety of women I find hot and/or beautiful.
Since then, two realisations.
1. It’s not all about the man. (You’d think I’d know that one by now).
2. If it was, I’d have it coming. The point I was trying to make was a real one, and I meant it - but on a different level, making that list couldn’t be anything but a request for special kudos.
Mea culpa, and I thought I should admit to that. Privilege has a lot of ways to creep up on you.
Nick, your reaction to the post title is a normal reaction. Being an ally makes you necessarily self-conscious (going by my own experience commenting on blogs about racism); that willingness to introspect is necessary to being a good ally. Once in a while you’re going to examine yourself only to find out it wasn’t about you - that’s just a statistical likelihood. But it’s the willingness to question your own behavior that makes you a good ally.
I took your list of attractive women in the same vein. The post I wrote laid out a very stark contrast between how women’s and men’s looks are evaluated in an appearance based industry. I too was making a list of actresses I find beautiful to see if I beat the curve, you know?
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