A couple of weeks ago, a woman shared a rather awful story on self.Reddit, entitled “How easy it is to make a woman feel like sh*t.” In it, she describes being in line at a coffee shop when a conventionally cute young woman asks if she can cut in front of her because her boyfriend is waiting. The author kindly declines on the basis that her boss is waiting for the coffee and she’s already pressed to get to work on time.
Meanwhile the man in front of me is listening in and he took his arm and pushed me back while using his other to es-court the other girl to in front of me. He actually said to me ” a woman like this should never have to stand behind a woman like you”. Ya, that how to make a human being feel like shit. What made it worst is that that girl laughed and flirted with him as I stood there dumb struck and started crying. Then she got her coffee (which he bought) and went to her boyfriend outside. Seriously.
The author’s later edit indicates she was stunned at the level of attention her post got. In particular, I know I was stunned by the level of thoughtful attention it received. This is Reddit, land of the trolls. There’s a lot of “sorry that happened to you” and “fuck that guy.” There’s one remark advising her not to make it about women, since nasty things happen to the menz too, but honestly, that’s some low-level concern trolling for the Reddit norm.
People even get into what I call Violent Fantasy Venting, suggesting she should’ve hit the guy, kicked him, even stabbed him (they write a little story). No one’s serious – after all, the author would have been arrested had she done so – but there’s a lot of frustration. Everyone hates men like the one in the story. There’s just not much they can do, but fantasize on Reddit and enjoy the community spirit that evolves from those fantasies.
It’s important to note that what this man did was entirely about punishing the un-gorgeous woman for existing. It wasn’t about appealing to the gorgeous woman – she has a boyfriend, and is probably ninety yards out of this guy’s league. This isn’t a case of a man being led around by his dick: this is simply a case of abusing a woman for not looking how you think she should, and it rather proves that the gamer culture we were so recently advised not to take so seriously does permeate beyond gaming. It goes everywhere woman-hating knuckle-dragging men and boys go. And that, incidentally, is why we talk about it.
Can anybody think of something this woman could have done to teach this guy a lesson? As much as I like the idea of violence, I’ve not found it really helps anything long-term – some assholes seem to find it encouraging. I can’t think of anything she could’ve said, because while perhaps pointing out what they’d done would’ve resulted in people shunning them and, at best, the barista sticking them on the back of the line, the odds are good everyone would’ve just ignored it rather than get involved, and it would’ve reaffirmed the idea that what the man did was okay.
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This is definitely not something the woman should have done, I routinely get in trouble for doing things like this, but I probably would have made a hell of a scene. I probably would have demanded to know if he really thought she was more valuable than I am as a human being because of her looks, and if he thought Antonio Banderas was more valuable than he because of his good looks, or if he was just a misogynistic asshole. But this is as I said why I have gotten into some real serious trouble.
But I have pretty privilege. I’m more likely to be on the other end of this, even if it still makes me pissy.
Attackfish(Quote) (Reply)
1. This should not ever happen to anybody, ever. I like to hope that if the person had been working the register had seen this, they would have ignored the “cute” girl entirely. I honestly don’t know if there’s anything the woman could have done other than to insult the guy verbally. Though, considering the amount of douchebaggary shown by this guy I would be worried he might retaliate with physical violence. From what’s described in the post, I wouldn’t put it past him.
2. I’m not sure what the link to gamer culture is here, other than that gamer culture is a more overt and distilled version of the misogyny that permeates society in general. Is there any indication that this particular asshat is a gamer? Is your thesis that “gamer culture” is the source of modern misogyny?
For what it’s worth, I’m not trying to defend gamers. God knows we have a lot to answer for.
jeff(Quote) (Reply)
It’s interesting you mention that. Outside of L.A., I’m not unlikely to be on the other end of a scenario like that myself. Inside L.A., which is overflowing with starlets, I would be on the same side as the woman in the article, almost in every case.
Honestly? I’d have said loudly, “You do know you don’t have a chance in hell with this gorgeous woman, don’t you? She’s so far out of your pitiful league AND has a boyfriend. Guess your brain’s the same size as your dick and your wallet.” And then if anyone looked at me funny, I’d play it like they were curious, and tell them, “She tried to cut in front of me because her boyfriend’s waiting, and I politely said no because my boss is waiting, so he not only pulls her up there, but says ‘No one like her should ever have to stand behind someone like me.’ You know, like he’s [insert hot male actor name here].” And then laughed.
I’ve actually pulled stunts like this, and if you’re confident and brazen enough, it works. Other people will laugh with you – particularly guys, who will resent Mr. Asshole because even in a world that makes allowances for guys being a “little” sexist or a little overzealous in their competition for sex, men are not allowed to treat one woman like shit to impress another. I know being around college boys could make you think I’m wrong – yes, I’ve seen them yell derogatory remarks at women they don’t find gorgeous from their cars as they drive by – but that’s an act of drunken rebellion combined with mob mentality. Not the way a sober individual grown-up behaves in a coffee shop in the morning. And those same guys who yell abuse from their cars at night? Would not condone what Mr. Asshole said.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
This!
Maria(Quote) (Reply)
When I do it, it shocks the hell out of people because the tiny pretty blonde girl with the oxygen is supposed to smile and be gracious, and mild mannered. And usually people think I should act like a child. And then people try to punish me like one.
I’m from LA myself, actually, and when I moved away, I went from being the worthless little crippled girl to being “oh cool, can you tell me about how real people in Hollywood sound?” It was pretty jarring. I’m naturally pretty in a very curvy way, but I never wear makeup, and my old neighborhood was very very Calvinist in its ideas. Having disabilities was obviously my fault. But outside LA, my disabilities combine with my petite good looks combine to make guys want to protect me and take care of me. Unfortunately, they tend to get very angry when I object.
The one thing about the comments on reddit was that most of the anger seemed to be directed towards the pretty girl. She might be spoiled and entitled, but the man is an asshole. And a lot of the anger seems to be along the lines of “all hot girls are evil!” No, please no.
One of my best friends is a baristra, and he has a habit of explaining in small words the concept of a line It’s satisfying to watch.
Attackfish(Quote) (Reply)
Yeah, I’d try and change the thing around to make it about him, too. “Do you think she’ll leave her boyfriend for you? Did you go to school on Fantasy Island?”
Or maybe: “When you masturbate about her later, does it make you cum harder if you paid for the coffee?”
The Other Patrick(Quote) (Reply)
Jeff, did you actually bother to read the whole article? It’s all explained clearly in the paragraph beginning “It’s important to note.”
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
ON a good day, I would probably give the asshole a piece of my mind. I prefer to do it calmly and rationally because it makes the guy look that much more pathetic in his jerkish behaviour, but you know, whatever works for you.
On a bad day, I’d probably have cried, or stood there in shock, because seriously? I don’t encounter such obvious sexism in real life very often, so I would probably have had the same reaction that I have to an obscure and vicious animal at the zoo, a sort of appalled curiosity over this bizarre specimen.
Also, the guy is totally the jerk here, and it’s bothersome how many people are blaming the pretty woman exclusively, but I think if *I* were on the pretty girl side of the equation I would have made a point of refusing to go first, and I’d probably have said something mean about the guy or complimented the other woman on something. ‘Cause he deserves to have his ignorant behaviour shot down.
Jaynie(Quote) (Reply)
Hmm, at the time I wrote the article, the vast majority of comments I read heaped abuse on the man, not the good-looking woman. That was another thing that pleased me. And I agree – she was wrong to accept his offer, but he was much worse to extend it, particularly the way he did. In defense of beautiful women, I’ve known quite a few who wouldn’t have accepted his offer, and would have been appalled at what he said.
Your description of L.A.’s reaction to your disability and looks is appalling. I shouldn’t be surprised, but while I expect extreme superficiality from Los Angeles, I sometimes forget how goddamn… well, hick it can be in its way of looking at things. “Calvinist” is a nice way to put it, but being from the South*, I’d just call it “hick.”
*Yes, not everyone considers WV “southern”, but culturally, it really is. We have grits and gravy and super-strong women who know how to run everything but let the pampered little wussy mama’s boy-men feel in charge even though everyone knows they couldn’t tackle a spider without an assault force backing them up. Yep – we’re Southern.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
I think it would have been interesting to know what he would have done if she had refused. A lot of men like that can get really nasty when their “courtesy” is refused… Not that this was probably the girl’s reason for taking the “hel” but still.
I totally get where you’re coming from on WV. My mom’s from rural Pennsylvania. Talk about places that aren’t The South but totally are. My dad’s from Alabama and my mom’s home town shocks him with it’s hick-ery. The thing is, I wouldn’t call my LA neighborhood all that Southern in attitude, just full of pampered, privileged people who thought there was something wrong with everyone who either didn’t want to or couldn’t manage to live exactly the way they did. When I was in the south, I always had a feeling I was doing something horrible and no one would tell me what. In LA, they wouldn’t stop telling me how awful I was and why. Calvinist in this case is code for “God shows his favor by blessing you. If you aren’t blessed you must be evil and going to hell” sort of way. Where I lived was obsessively competitive, and if you couldn’t compete, you just weren’t human.
Attackfish(Quote) (Reply)
Wow, people in LA are fucked up…I don’t know the five tenets of Calvinism and I CERTAINLY didn’t know that if you were disabled that means God hates you and ur doin it rong or some shit.
Speaking of places that aren’t Southern yet are, I live in Southern Oregon and I’m still positively baffled at how many people hang Confederate flags from their cars/adorn their backpacks, etc…despite the people doing this usually being of mixed race. Ha-ha?
Casey(Quote) (Reply)
That second one’s good – you should get a job writing dialogue for real life!
Dom Camus(Quote) (Reply)
Most Calvinist descended denominations don’t have that attitude anymore at all. It’s a remnant of a Puritan era belief. See, Calvinists believe that since God is all knowing, and knows the future, who is going to heaven and hell is already known to him. This led to a focus on determining whether you or your loved ones were saved. To comfort their parishioners, who if they were going to hell were going to hell no matter what they did, the ministers said that God blesses those going to heaven with good fortune and health. The unintended consequence of that was an ideology that condoned victim blaming.
Attackfish(Quote) (Reply)
OH! Well in a weird way, that helps explain to me every fucked-up thing ever in America (regarding stuff pertaining to social injustice and the like)…”Bad stuff happens to bad people, they just don’t know they’re bad yet”, I guess~?
Casey(Quote) (Reply)
I did indeed read the article. Twice, actually. I quite enjoyed it. It’s nice to be informed that even a troll farm like reddit can be exhibit basic humanity from time to time instead of just it’s usual apathy and/or idiocy. And I completely agree that this guy is just treating a “pretty” woman better because she’s pretty. I also agree that my fellow gamers are, on the whole, utter misogynistic idiots. I try my best to counter those sentiments when I find them. We’re at like 99.9% agreement here.
I simply don’t understand how this particular incident has anything to do with gamer culture, though. Nothing in the article points to this person being a gamer, or having anything to do with gamer culture. If he’d been wearing a HAXXORS shirt or had said “MAN THE HARPOONS” or any of the other millions of misogynistic memes that permeate the internet, there’d be no questions.
I’m not defending this guy. I’m not defending gamers. I’m just not clear on what demonstrative effect gamer culture has to do with this particular idiot being particularly idiotic? It’s a non-sequitur. The only clear link between this guy and gamers is that both are misogynistic. The same thing could be said about office culture, or sports culture, or any number of other things.
jeff(Quote) (Reply)
Just about! It’s a component of the “Protestant Work Ethic”.
Attackfish(Quote) (Reply)
Slightly OT– I’ve been living in northeast FL for the past several years, and as a transplanted Northerner, I can tell you I didn’t think of FL as the South until I actually got here. In the North, FL = Palm Beach, Orlando, Miami. The rest of the state simply doesn’t exist, except maybe for Kissimee. Washington DC and south are Southern, imo.
That said, the least “hick” place I ever lived was also the most rural, so make of that what you will.
Gena(Quote) (Reply)
It’s not really a non-sequitur – it’s demonstrating quite effectively how that “defense” in the gamer kerfuffle THL had with those folks over at Team Liquid of it being “not a big deal” really, in actuality, is a pretty big deal because that sort of thing happens in many ways, in many venues, etc., etc., in a woman’s daily life.
The reference was to the gamer post and thread, precisely because it does all tie in to a much broader culture.
sbg(Quote) (Reply)
Yes, it’s a half-ass stereotype that hick goes with rural. People in L.A. can be unbelievably unworldly if they haven’t explored the rest of the world. I mean, at least the guy who never leaves his stereotypical trailer in rural Somewhere sees what the rest of the world looks like on TV, putting him one-up on the Los Angelino.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
So true. My uncle lives in the back of beyond Illinois corn country, and he’s as sophisticated as they come. Of course, he’s also a professor. And my LA neighbors might not have been southern, but they were hicks of the first order.
Attackfish(Quote) (Reply)
I don’t know that there is much she could have done. The antics others have suggested strike me as hilarious and possible, but also problematic and often up to the brass level of your ovaries. (I could maybe pull it off, my mother couldn’t.)
What I do think needed to happen was for others in the place to get involved. One person has a limited set of options when dealing with another person who is being a dick — and most of them can be problematic in a lot of situations. OTOH, if a group gets involved, then this stuff can be shut down rapidly.
Someone in a subway a few months back was trying to shove a homeless guy out of the way. Folks around him made a quick set of comments, and mostly just looked at him in a way that made disapproval and contempt obvious. Another guy got in and moved the homeless guy away from him a little, and I asked the attacker what was going on. When he answered (“he was pushing me” — obvious bullshit in this case) I just looked at him like he was a brain damaged fuckwit. Everyone in the circle around him looked at him like he was a brain damaged fuckwit. No one threatened, no one was clever (though I had an urge to be), we just looked at the dude.
He ran away pretty quick after that. Its amazing how much a group of people looking at you like you’re an idiot can suck.
So what could she do? Some things, but many of them could really suck if done wrong. But what could all the others in the shop have done? A lot, and fairly easily.
Brand Robins(Quote) (Reply)
Yeah, from a barrista taking her order first (or someone letting her cut in front of the guy) as a fairly small thing to actually speaking up, a lot of potential for bystanders.
The Other Patrick(Quote) (Reply)
In a hurry and the boss is waiting? Bellow, “GET YOUR HANDS OFF ME, YOU WEIRDO! WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU PUSHING ME FOR?” and get everybody looking. Which should hopefully get Mister Jackmypeen embarrassed enough to move away.
Jenny Islander(Quote) (Reply)
Yeah, except I think it’s already been established further up in the thread that if you loudly raised a snit, everyone would just “ignore” it and shuffle around awkwardly.
Casey(Quote) (Reply)
Jeff, we had just been told we shouldn’t call gamers on their sexism because no one acts like that in real life. This incident demonstrates that people do indeed act like desperately sexist little gamer boyz in real life, hence our concern about gamer sexism was not overblown. If quite a few gamers hadn’t insisted we were blowing things out of proportion, I wouldn’t have felt the need to provide a nice, handy, concrete example of precisely WHY it’s not out of proportion at all. But they did, repeatedly, so I provided it here.
If you think that’s unfair, you’re on the wrong site.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Well, we agreed that yelling about the line cutting probably wouldn’t stimulate anyone’s interest. But what Jenny’s suggesting is a little different, and it probably *would* get a man some evil stares from the crowd. The reactions may also vary regionally – not every state/country/region has the same ideas about what’s polite and rude, and when to get involved and when to ignore.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
I totally second this. It’s possible no one else overheard the exchange, in which case I can’t blame them for not speaking up. But when we see shit like this happening, we should speak up. At the very least, to offer support to the person it happened to, i.e., “Did he just say what I think he said? What an asshat!”
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
When I was in the south, I always had a feeling I was doing something horrible and no one would tell me what. In LA, they wouldn’t stop telling me how awful I was and why.
Ha, my experience was totally backward to that. Wonder if it’s anything to do with youth v. adulthood? I was a kid in the South, and never stopped hearing what was wrong with me, but once I moved to L.A. as an adult, it’s more like I don’t fit in but no one says anything. Like, maybe it’s the same attitude, but kids manifest it differently than they will as adults? Just a possibility.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Yeah you do have a point, I guess I replied to Jenny too fast to really read what she said.
Casey(Quote) (Reply)
Just wanted to say thanks in advance for baleeting my and Lisa’s comments (things were gonna get ugly).
Casey(Quote) (Reply)
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