Disgruntled comment trolls frequently drop by here and leave complaints about how cruelly picky women are about the men they’re willing to date and, by contrast, how pathetically easy men are.
No! I am the most saddest!
Let’s just put this myth to bed without its supper, shall we?
Some people are very picky about who they will date, while some are not picky at all. By people, I mean “humans of all genders.” It is true that society counsels men to shoot at everything that moves and women to be choosy, but despite this conditioning, it doesn’t actually work out this way nearly as often as you might suppose. If you are a man who thinks women are picky and men are so easy, here is where you’re confused:
…men imagine themselves to be less picky about looks because they don’t even see the women they reject.
See, if you’re a guy who asks a woman out and she says no, you have been rejected. But if you’re a woman who is hoping a man will ask you out (sadly, most men can’t handle a woman doing the asking, even these days) and he doesn’t, she has been rejected. You go out to a bar and ask ten women for their numbers or some promise of future contact and they all turn you down. Ouch – you’ve been rejected by ten people! A woman goes out to a bar and ninety-three men walk past her, glance her over, don’t see what they’re looking for and move on. She’s just been rejected by ninety-three people.
If you’re one of the ninety-three who tripped over that woman and loads more like her in your stampede toward the supermodel lookalike in the corner, you don’t feel like you’ve rejected that other woman. In five seconds, you won’t even remember all the women you glanced over who didn’t meet your criteria. But they exist. And in not hitting on them, you have demonstrated that you have – gasp – standards for choosing who you will and won’t date!
If you have ever passed over a woman who was available at a time when you wanted to be with someone, you have standards for who you will date. Don’t feel bad – it means your brain is functioning, which is important for your overall health and well-being. You may need some time to adjust to not feeling sorry for yourself, but this too should help your dating life. Self-pity is not a turn-on.
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Pet peeve: perenially single nerdy guys bemoaning the bitchyness and selectivity of women while only approaching “hot” girls and ignoring other nerdy girls. It’s an example of male entitlement to me because of the assumption that having a penis means you deserve a “hottie.”
Maria(Quote) (Reply)
Damn straight!
I am picky. I am picky about minor things in my life, so of course I’m picky about who I am going to have sex with, especially since I’m not so much into casual sex.
However, I have always fashioned myself not to be picky about physical appearance until I was recently proven wrong, and I did have a small problem accepting the reason why I didn’t click with the woman. And of course, I don’t find most supermodel types to be that attractive, so that’s being picky, as well.
That said, my last serious girlfriend asked me out, and my most recent date also came about on her initiative (but sadly, it didn’t turn out so well).
The Other Patrick(Quote) (Reply)
Maria: I can’t understand that. Nerdy girls are awesome!
Also, I don’t like the suicide girls because they portray a very white mainstream beauty – despite all those tattoos and stuff.
The Other Patrick(Quote) (Reply)
@ Maria: Ah yes. The Nice Guy. One of the more common creatures to be seen in the wilds. It can be identified by it’s repetitive cry of ‘Girls only like jerks! That slut, she’s dating guys that bother to take care of themselves and get a job instead of letting me have a pityfuck! What a bitch!” and a mating call of ‘I’m your friend. We’re friend. By the way, me? Friend.’
Many hope that Darwin will utilise his Chainsaw of Natural Selection.
Ahem. Pardon. >>
SarahSyna(Quote) (Reply)
Ugh, yes.
Sorry: you got two hands, you get zero sympathy. More sympathy if you’re dealing with things that aren’t your fault and are hard for people to look past, but still, not having a SO is not a cosmic tragedy.
While I will have casual sex, I’m ludicrously picky, myself, both in terms of abstract qualities and in general, because…well, I’m generally quite happy being single. I mean, if I lowered my standards, I’d get to spend time with a guy who doesn’t really do it for me instead of chilling out with friends or reading a good book. Y…ay?
Izzy(Quote) (Reply)
This is why women need to be encouraged to be proactive and society needs to let go of the “only guys ask” rule. I’ve always asked men out. I’ve been turned down and I’ve gotten dates. I’m sure a few turned me down because I was being forward but you know what, I wouldn’t want to be with a guy like that anyway.
Sadly, however, society tends to label women like that too “forward” instead of empowered.
AmyMcCabe(Quote) (Reply)
This totally made me LOL.
sbg(Quote) (Reply)
The Other Patrick: Oh, nerdy girls ARE awesome — as long as they’re faux nerdy (teehee, glasses!) and not REALLY nerdy (I THINK YOUR PET THEORY FOR THE UNIVERSE IS WRONG. Here are my citations.).
I have a lot of bitterness towards my nerdier exes, as you can see.
Maria(Quote) (Reply)
I like this counterpoint, although I always feel like we need to flag anything with generally essentialist stuff as such.
[dave](Quote) (Reply)
Yeah, I can see. I wish someone would disprove my pet theory of the universe with citations. That’s like a knowledge smackdown. But I hear you, “geek chic” or “nerd chic” only means you have to dress the part.
The Other Patrick(Quote) (Reply)
so true!!!
and i completely agree with maria’s comment about the nerdy guys.
ce(Quote) (Reply)
I have had thought something similar for years. Only my conclusion is much cruder and involves profanity. Still, similar.
The thing is men do not negotiate with themselves about their preferences. A woman (or man, or whatever) either makes a man’s dick hard or not. There is no debate in the man’s mind. He preselects based upon what form engages his penile erection. Period. Women negotiate out of obligation, social pressure, etc. Men don’t even entertain the thought of dating someone who they would not have sex with.
That is neither negative nor positive; it just is. But men denying that is ridiculous. There isn’t a woman in the world cute or smart or cool or into sports enough to negate the dick=hard equation.
ohcoya(Quote) (Reply)
Maria said:
>>The Other Patrick: Oh, nerdy girls ARE awesome — as long as they’re faux nerdy (teehee, glasses!) and not REALLY nerdy (I THINK YOUR PET THEORY FOR THE UNIVERSE IS WRONG. Here are my citations.).
I have a lot of bitterness towards my nerdier exes, as you can see.
——
You just described, oh, my entire life? Luckily some of those guys who say they’re interested in nerdy women actually are interested in the nerdy part rather than the “women inhabiting the same space as me for my dating convenience” part.
Katran(Quote) (Reply)
re Nice Guys: as always, when I hear mention of Nice Guys, I remember a friend of mine summing up one particular specimen with “yeah, why can’t those cunts appreciate nice guys like us?”. (The Nice Guy didn’t actually use that word, but he was not using it very loudly, if you get my drift.)
re “nerdy” girls VS nerdy girls: this has mostly passed me by, but then I’m a guy. I have heard one or two girls expressing bemusement that they’ve been hit on at conventions, as they’re not conventionally attractive. I take it as read they mean they thought these guys were desperate and considered them an easy mark.
Charles RB(Quote) (Reply)
ohcoya: I’m trying to find out whether what you’re saying would be a bad thing. I mean, when I’m looking for a partner, I’m looking for a friend to also have sex with, so why shouldn’t my attraction be important? On the other hand, if you think guys decide based on looks, I would disagree because there are other things that make my dick hard.
But yes, I’ve gone out with women where I was great friends with, where I thought they were smart, where on paper everything should have been great, but it just wasn’t there. You could say they didn’t make my dick hard, or that I didn’t fall for them. Either way, I didn’t end up in a relationship with them. And I’ve got a great, great friend who is female and who has lamented that she wasn’t feeling attracted to me because otherwise we’d be a great couple – so maybe women aren’t even that different?
The Other Patrick(Quote) (Reply)
OtherPatrick: I think what ohcoya is getting at (and please pardon me if I am off the mark) is that women are pressured socially to be involved with men they may not find attractive, and have sex with them…because women can be treated as passive vessels for male lust. Men are seldom pressured to act as living dildos or oral sex providers for women they aren’t particularly attracted to, just because “they have a great personality” or “they make a lot of money”.
I’m going to admit that I use the “dick gets hard” criteria when deciding whether or not I’d like to date someone (in the strictly theoretical sense, since I’m in a monogamous marriage), and I expect women to use the same criteria. But society doesn’t.
I don’t find it a bad criteria, though. Because if someone IS really cool/fun to be with/great personality/etc., there is nothing wrong with being friends with that person as opposed to having a “romantic relationship” with them. I love my wife, and we have a great relationship, but our relationship is not (particularly) more special because we also have sex. It is just special in different ways.
Spartakos(Quote) (Reply)
Re: the OP…one could interpret your data to indicate that EVERYBODY gets rejected on a regular basis (be it passively by being ignored or actively by being turned down), but that society sets men up for the active rejection more often, due to the nature of courtship traditions. Men seem to feel the sting of active rejection more acutely than passive…is this less true for women?
As someone who literally never dated, I’d say my number one reason for not asking women out was fear of active rejection.
Spartakos(Quote) (Reply)
@The Other Patrick: I agree with Spartakos–the problem isn’t that men want to begin sexual or potentially sexual relationships with women who they’re attracted to. That’s perfectly reasonable. (For the sake of simplicity, I’ll temporarily set aside the fact that society encourages both men and women to consider only a small fraction of women ‘acceptable attractive,’ although I do think that’s also related.)
The problem is that men are allowed or expected to only want to date (hit on, flirt with, sleep with, whatever) people they’re attracted to, but women are encouraged to believe that they should not use those same standards. Women are frequently told that they’re being too picky, to hard on a guy, if they actually admit that they didn’t want to go out with someone because they weren’t attracted to him. They’re told, “He’s a nice guy!” or “You should give him another chance,” or “Perhaps you need to wait for attraction to bloom between you.” Or, yes, “But he’s stable and has a good job.” And it does seem to me to be a gendered reaction: women get that reaction almost instantaneously and from both men and women if they admit to not seeing someone because they’re not attracted. (“Would you rather date someone who’s attractive and mean, huh?!?” is a more aggressive version of this–as though those were the only choices!)
In other words, the problem isn’t that people are including attractiveness in the way they choose mates; the problem is that men are allowed to do so and women are strongly encouraged not to, and are often either pictured as picky or selfish if they do, or, worse, get dire predictions that they’ll date an abuser if they include physical attractiveness.
Coraa(Quote) (Reply)
Seen at comics forums/shops/cons everywhere:
Guys: Wow, I wish there were girls into comics
Girls: Hi!
Guys: …no, we meant *hot* girls.
Subset of girls: You mean us?
Guys:…who know just enough to agree with me.
Girls: *sigh*
Seriously, I’m glad I’m not straight.
lilacsigil(Quote) (Reply)
Active rejection at least allows for a sophomoric “well, you suck anyway!” mental rejoinder, whereas too much passive rejection can simply lead to depression if you’re too focused on it.
I wouldn’t have gotten out of bed for years now, being the kind of hetero woman who apparently tickles a very minute number of pickles.
(Sorry, I’m really punchy today.)
sbg(Quote) (Reply)
@Cora: Put this way, I totally agree. On all points.
And while I’m not so much into comics, I have done my share of fantasy rpgs, so I recognize what lilacsigil describes. I distinctly remember when a girl joined our group and when I arrived at our creepy DM’s house, she’d been there for quite some time and greeted me with a face displaying pure elation that finally, someone else was there.
The Other Patrick(Quote) (Reply)
Active rejection at least allows for a sophomoric “well, you suck anyway!” mental rejoinder, whereas too much passive rejection can simply lead to depression if you’re too focused on it.
I second this. In order to ask someone out, you just need to screw up your courage, do it, and cope with the sting of rejection if they say no. In order to get asked out, you’re supposed to engage in complex beautifying rituals, complex flirting rituals, send the “right signals” (and you’re on your own, figuring out what the hell that means), etc. If you don’t get asked out, you’re supposed to wonder what’s wrong with YOU that you didn’t, and where you should start over on all your complex rituals.
I would much much much rather do the asking. Not that I’m typical or anything, I’m just giving my vote, based on experience both ways.
Also: men rarely have to deal with the crushing awkwardness that is rejecting someone who asks YOU out without losing the Nice Girl status that society requires you to maintain at all times.
Also, what Coraa said. I talked about something similar here.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
@Jennifer Kesler
Regarding asking someone out: yes, absolutely. And one of the most frustrating things is the fact that the response to that observation is often, “Well, then women should just ask men out!” Because some do, absolutely, so it is possible and it does sometimes work… but it’s a bit disingenuous to suggest that cultural conditioning can be thrown off that easily, or that women don’t face backlash when they do become more assertive. It becomes a double bind: if you ask and you get backlash for being too pushy or aggressive or a ballbreaker, then it’s your fault for not conforming; if you conform and go through the elaborate rituals of attempting to attract attention, you’re not trying hard enough.
Also: men rarely have to deal with the crushing awkwardness that is rejecting someone who asks YOU out without losing the Nice Girl status that society requires you to maintain at all times.
It’s really pretty frightening how often a man who is rejected, even very pleasantly, will respond with a sudden burst of aggression or insults or elaborate sulking, and/or that onlookers will say, geez, couldn’t you have given him a chance? So there’s an expectation there that when women feel bad about passive rejection, it’s the women’s problem; and when men feel bad about active rejection, it’s also the women’s problem.
Coraa(Quote) (Reply)
Coraa, it’s my pet theory that the whole reason we developed civilization was on the mistaken belief that male violent tendencies can be reined in by providing them plenty of sex. Everything seems to be arranged around assuring that even the least desirable (and human) male will receive sex from women.
Got a better idea: give ‘em all Valium and let us get on with our shit.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
And one of the most frustrating things is the fact that the response to that observation is often, “Well, then women should just ask men out!” Because some do, absolutely, so it is possible and it does sometimes work… but it’s a bit disingenuous to suggest that cultural conditioning can be thrown off that easily, or that women don’t face backlash when they do become more assertive.
Exactly! It is against everything we are trained to do from day one and I know it will make people uncomfortable.
amymccabe(Quote) (Reply)
Great discussion and I agree with most of it (especially the bit about how some men like intelligent women as long as they’re not TOO intelligenet – for which read, more intelligent than them).
I do, however, have one major major quibble with the original post and a large number of the comments.
It’s “criterion”. “A criterion”, to be exact.
“Criteria” is plural. Dick hardness is just one of the many criteria that you could have, which would make it a crietrion in amongst all your other, erm, criteria. You get the picture.
I now return you to your normal programming.
MarinaS(Quote) (Reply)
I thought “a criteria” referred to a set of criterion(s). No matter – I dropped the “a” since what I’m actually referring to is a set of standards. Then I realized “standards” was a better word because everyone knows what it means and that women are being mean ol’ bitches when we have them.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Maria: Oh, nerdy girls ARE awesome — as long as they’re faux nerdy (teehee, glasses!) and not REALLY nerdy (I THINK YOUR PET THEORY FOR THE UNIVERSE IS WRONG. Here are my citations.).
Oh MAAAAN do some nerdy boys get upset when you provide ‘em with citations. Or when you keep asserting that you already know what they’re condesendingly lecturing to you about.
My nerdy boyfriend, meanwhile, got this wonderfully enamored look in his eyes this one time when I was holding forth on a topic with… let’s call it passionate expertise. THAT’S LOVE, FOLKS. Nerdy love.
Also: The passive sitting around and waiting to be asked out thing was never something I considered to be a reasonable romantic strategy. One, I had been firmly convinced of my ugliness and undesirablity from a young age. Two, from the same young age I had always been presented with the message of ‘women can TOTALLY ask guys on dates. It’s modern and it’s what cool women do.’ So I asked guys on dates! With oftentimes mixed results! And sometimes (much to my surprise) guys would ask me out! With equally mixed results! (Who said that turning a guy down is REALLY HARD if you’ve got a considerable investment in your Nice Girl Let’s Be A Huge Doormat status? Kudos to you! Hit the nail right on the head.)
It’s all kind of confusing and not a very good anecdote and I forget where I was going with this. Um, sorry.
Lampdevil(Quote) (Reply)
Actually, one doesn’t need to have a “huge investment” in one’s Nice Girl status if one has repeatedly been punished anytime one stood up for herself since an early age. Yep, it still happens.
Just sayin’.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Aaah, I’ve spent my life having people try to smack me down every time I stand up for myself. My initial reaction was indeed to put a bigass investment in Being Really Damn Nice.
Then I got fed up and snapped and started yelling and people and I haven’t looked back. It’s quite liberating! (And much more complex than that. But I do get what you’re saying, Jennifer. A whole lot of work goes into getting us to buy into Nice Girl BS.)
Lampdevil(Quote) (Reply)
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