Disgruntled comment trolls frequently drop by here and leave complaints about how cruelly picky women are about the men they’re willing to date and, by contrast, how pathetically easy men are.
No! I am the most saddest!
Let’s just put this myth to bed without its supper, shall we?
Some people are very picky about who they will date, while some are not picky at all. By people, I mean “humans of all genders.” It is true that society counsels men to shoot at everything that moves and women to be choosy, but despite this conditioning, it doesn’t actually work out this way nearly as often as you might suppose. If you are a man who thinks women are picky and men are so easy, here is where you’re confused:
…men imagine themselves to be less picky about looks because they don’t even see the women they reject.
See, if you’re a guy who asks a woman out and she says no, you have been rejected. But if you’re a woman who is hoping a man will ask you out (sadly, most men can’t handle a woman doing the asking, even these days) and he doesn’t, she has been rejected. You go out to a bar and ask ten women for their numbers or some promise of future contact and they all turn you down. Ouch – you’ve been rejected by ten people! A woman goes out to a bar and ninety-three men walk past her, glance her over, don’t see what they’re looking for and move on. She’s just been rejected by ninety-three people.
If you’re one of the ninety-three who tripped over that woman and loads more like her in your stampede toward the supermodel lookalike in the corner, you don’t feel like you’ve rejected that other woman. In five seconds, you won’t even remember all the women you glanced over who didn’t meet your criteria. But they exist. And in not hitting on them, you have demonstrated that you have – gasp – standards for choosing who you will and won’t date!
If you have ever passed over a woman who was available at a time when you wanted to be with someone, you have standards for who you will date. Don’t feel bad – it means your brain is functioning, which is important for your overall health and well-being. You may need some time to adjust to not feeling sorry for yourself, but this too should help your dating life. Self-pity is not a turn-on.
{ 68 comments… read them below or add one }
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@MarinaS — Latin nerds FTW!
I don’t have a whole lot to add to the discussion at this late point, but I am loving what’s here.
Robin(Quote) (Reply)
In theory, I wouldn’t mind being the one to ask a dude out. However, I am shy, and do I really want to pursue a guy who folds his arms at me when I go over to maybe dance with him, or pushes past me to dance closer to my friends, or grunts at me when I ask him what the back of his Dethklok t-shirt says, etc. ? Not so much. Admittedly, part of that is probably just me and my difficulties properly engaging in public activity. Sooner or later tho’, I will have to work up to something more extroverted, if only to call people out “Oh, what’s this? A woman partaking of your video games, and you are showing no interest. how fascinating”
Quib(Quote) (Reply)
It’s really pretty frightening how often a man who is rejected, even very pleasantly, will respond with a sudden burst of aggression or insults or elaborate sulking, and/or that onlookers will say, geez, couldn’t you have given him a chance? So there’s an expectation there that when women feel bad about passive rejection, it’s the women’s problem; and when men feel bad about active rejection, it’s also the women’s problem.
Sometimes said man will respond with actual physical violence, or threats of same. As in this story, which surprised me not because it happened, but because the media bothered to cover it.
JMS(Quote) (Reply)
I get tired of guys who complain about being overlooked by women. These guys are usually chubby and nerdy. I love chubby and nerdy. Lots of women do. You know what I don’t like? The fact that they haven’t showered in three days or shaved in five. Their shirt is covered in stains and holes. And their social skills are . . . lacking. Maybe you can’t do much with your weight or receding hairline or general image (i.e. nerd vs. jock) but if you can’t be bothered to perform simple routine maintenance on yourself don’t blame me for not looking twice.
Palaverer(Quote) (Reply)
I’m not sure why facial hair’s being counted alongside not washing: the former’s a subjective preference with various styles and/or people who can/can’t pull them off, the other is bad hygiene.
Charles RB(Quote) (Reply)
I thought Palaverer was referring to someone who isn’t intentionally sporting a beard, but rather just can’t be bothered to shave daily. There’s certainly nothing wrong with decently-groomed facial hair.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Jennifer has understood me correctly. A man can sport any manner of well-groomed facial hair. But to allow even part of his face to go to scruff for a day or two is visually and texturally unappealing. While some women are attracted to that look, it gives an implication of laziness and inattention to personal appearance to the rest of us.
Palaverer(Quote) (Reply)
I don’t mind the unshaven look quite so much –a day or two without shaving is fine by me, it’s only when it starts to look like you haven’t shaved all week that I get a bit iffy…
But I’ve kind of trained this into myself, since I hate to shave my legs
I figure if I want a break from people about my fuzzy legs, the least I could do is try to give guys a break about their fuzzy face. Not like they can wear long pants to hide that, either…
Raeka(Quote) (Reply)
Agreed Raeka. I cut my BF slack for not shaving just as he does for me. No one should be expected to look pristine at all times. Some guys sport the sloppy look all the time and can’t understand why women aren’t interested.
Palaverer(Quote) (Reply)
Yeah. I mean, I’m on the opposite end–I put a fair amount of effort into my appearance, and I’m only interested in guys who do the same–and I think a good general principle is that you probably should put in the same amount of effort as the people you want to date.
The problem is, a lot of guys–especially geek guys, ye gods, and this is why I don’t go to cons alone–learn that they should be able to neglect things like hygiene, any attempt to keep in shape, social skills, basic fashion sense, etc, and still date fit, well-groomed, socially adept women because They’re Such Nice Guys.
Gag me.
Izzy(Quote) (Reply)
On a side note, the Hollywood/modeling version of the “few days’ stubble” look is NOT what a few days of stubble actually looks like. Most beards get scraggly after a few days of growing and don’t look well-kempt. The La La Land version is trimmed carefully with a beard trimmer.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Very interesting article. Definitely an eye-opener.
I must admit that I’m probably one of those guys who thinks he’s doing worse in dating than he really is because he’s too focused on the “hot girls” he can’t get, and ignores the less-than-hot girls that are interested in him.
It certainly pisses me off as well when unattractive guys think they’re entitled to girls who are way more attractive than they are, yet they themselves wouldn’t even give the time of day to a girl who wasn’t hot.
It’s confusing for guys though because there’s this idea that women either don’t care about looks, or don’t value it nearly as much as men do. Therefore, many men who don’t look like Hugh Jackman think that they can score hot women by making up for it in other qualities (for example, a sense of humour).
I think women encourage this idea because:
A) it is at least somewhat true
B) they feel socially pressured to play down the importance of physical attraction in order to seem like good wife material and not some horny slut
C) It gives them a sense of superiority to feel like they are more cerebral and comprehensive in dealing with attraction, whereas men are motivated by primitive urges
So while I too am irritated by picky men who have standards that are way too high, I think women should understand why that is so. Sure, some men are just horny jerks with huge senses of entitlement. But our culture also tells men that looks don’t really matter with women, or that as long as you don’t look like Frankenstein, you can make up for your unBeckham-like looks with personality, wealth, sincerity, etc.
Chris(Quote) (Reply)
Chris,
Well, short answer: your culture is lying to you.
Long answer: women are heavily socially conditioned to put a man’s other qualities ahead of looks, but I’ve never known a woman who didn’t appreciate good looks. So while we’re being conditioned to believe we care more about other traits, and you’re being told we’re hard-wired to care more about other traits, the fact is: women are interested in looks, probably as much as men are.
So I kind of disagree with your idea that women encourage the idea for those three reasons. You’re not way way off the mark, but I’d say it’s society trying to brainwash both men and women into thinking women don’t care about looks, when in fact we seem to be hardwired with ideas about attractiveness. Beyond that, some of us prioritize looks higher than others, but I’d say that’s true of men. Surely there are some men who realize beautiful women who have nasty personalities aren’t preferably to okay-looking women who are worth knowing in other ways.
So I would say that Item A is absolutely untrue, except insofar as social conditioning has worked on some women (i.e., it’s not a hardwired preference), and Item B has some truth due to the gender roles we’re assigned. Item C, I dunno. No one’s ever expressed a sense of superiority to men on that note to me, while some have told me women are superior to men for various other reasons.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
“Surely there are some men who realize beautiful women who have nasty personalities aren’t preferably to okay-looking women who are worth knowing in other ways.”
Ah, well – for long-term stuff, a large number of blokes do know that. For short-term things, like random sex and/or bragging rights, many would go with the one with nasty personalities because hey, that’s not what they’re after there. AFAIK women do the same thing but it’s frowned on more by society than when men do it.
Charles RB(Quote) (Reply)
RIGHT. ON.
(I know this doesn’t add anything to the discussion, but I had to say it.)
Genevieve(Quote) (Reply)
Second on the RIGHT ON! I used to only like the nerdy, ugly boys because I actually liked them, but they would not only trample me in the proverbial stampede to court the supermodel lookalike in the corner, they would go out of their way to spit on me publicly. All of them, in fact, not just the ones I liked.
Then they would whine and moan about how “women are bitches” and how “women just like money” and “women should love me for who I am, even if I’m not handsome”. Well, no, little boy. There are women that like you for who you are, but you are judging them entirely on how they look. You want to be loved for who you are to the exclusion of how you look or how much money you make, even as you reject loving women for who they are in exclusive favor of how they look–and those “looks” standards are infinitely more extreme for women than men and the pursuit of such “looks” result in much more physical damage and death.
It’s because of that that I refuse to date any ugly nerdy guys. I’m a good looking girl and once this weight’s off I’m a knockout! And I’m just not interested in the guys who made me suicidal as a teenager. The handsome boys treated me decently–in that they spoke to me politely when the opportunities came up and did not make a public spectacle of their contempt for me–so I don’t have the same psychological damage about a good-looking guy.
You were too good for me when I wasn’t “pretty”? Well, guess what. I’m too good for you now. Beat it.
Demonhype(Quote) (Reply)
That is me! A guy in HS supposedly liked me all that time, and at one point one of his female friends approached me to tell me that. I said I wasn’t attracted to him, and I was immediately accused of not liking him because he was fat. No amount of “I have hardly spoken to him and what conversation we have had has made it clear we have nothing in common” could sway them. I was some shallow bitch because I’m supposed to just say “sure!” when a guy likes me and wants to date me, and if I didn’t it was because I just don’t appreciate a nice guy like him. And yes, I’m not particularly attracted to fat guys, especially not fat guys who were shaped a bit like a candy-corn, but the biggest issue was that there wasn’t anything there on any level for me to even find him interesting as a friend, much less appealing as a lover.
Of course, any time the guys rejected a fat or ugly girl, the “dick gets hard” excuse came trotting out as a carte blanche and that was the end of the discussion. She’s gross therefore her value as a human being is nil, end of story. You females, on the other hand, are nothing more than vessels for our seed and objects of lust, so your physical attraction is meaningless. So when Men reject based on physical attraction, it should be treated as Unquestioned Gospel, but if there is even a suspicion that a Woman is rejecting a Man on a basis of physical attraction, she’s shallow and evil, a “bitch” or “cunt” who doesn’t appreciate men for who they are.
And, of course, outside of the “the physical attraction of women does not matter” meme, there was also the way they’d use that as an out, to protect themselves against the possibility that maybe she just doesn’t like “You”. Which just perpetuates the Nice Guy syndrome even more, insulating them against any unpleasant self-truths.
Demonhype(Quote) (Reply)
Oy, I’ve seen this so much. A have a guy friend who has complained numerous times about how (perfectly blandly pretty) girls (who he barely knows and has little in common with) who he asks out (often after only talking with them once) don’t give him a chance and often blames it on his nerdiness/non-conventionally attractive looks (bigger dude, prematurely graying) and therefore on their shallowness. Yet, when he was recounting to me how another close friend of his (a bigger girl who didn’t pay much attention to fashion or makeup but who he had everything in common with) once asked him out, he literally shuddered/grimaced as he recounted turning her down. And yes–it is okay to say “no.” But how fucking rude to both not see the hypocrisy there and to shudder while you’re at it.
Genevieve(Quote) (Reply)
He shuddered over a close friend?
What a ‘class’ act.
Charles RB(Quote) (Reply)
If women on average are less picky about male attractiveness than vice versa, how come there are more involuntarily celibate men than there are women? Shouldn’t the numbers be about even?
Similarly, explain the following situation to me:
There are two persons.
Person a is me: A 24 year old male with deformed face, excess weight (180 lbs and not particularly muscular) and some degree of social maladjustment (My conversations are usually plagued by awkward silences and are generally characterized as boring). I am obviously not conventionally attractive. Despite having spent years on trying to improve myself and expand my social circles, I am still a virgin and still haven’t received a single positive reaction from a woman.
Person b is a girl who takes several classes that I also take in university: She is 22 years old, obese (can’t tell the exact weight, but she requires two chairs to sit, so it’s quite a bit more than me) and socially maladjusted to a high degree (she only ever talks about herself, and her favorite topics are the various health complications that her obesity has resulted in). I suppose everybody here will agree that just like me, she is not conventionally attractive. And yet, she is currenty in her third long-term relationship. Her boyfriend is a conventionally attractive reasonably fit male. In addition, on multiple occasions this girl has mocked me for my appearance and lack of social skills.
Unless this is some kind of unque occurence, does this not invalidate the contents of the article? If women are not pickier than men, shouldn’t my years of active socializing, showing interest in women and asking them out yielded me at least some degree of success in the form of positive attention from women?
CosmosStars(Quote) (Reply)
“Involuntarily celibate men”?
*braces herself for possible MRA troll*
Casey(Quote) (Reply)
There aren’t. There are far more involuntarily celibate women than men. They just don’t whine online about it as much.
Not at all. Like the article said, there are probably a number of women who’d be interested in dating you, but they are invisible to you because they aren’t conventionally attractive. That’s usually the problem.
Another possibility is that you’re one of these guys to whom women are pretty much interchangeable. We do pick up on that.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
I’d also add that just because one person asks more people out doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re statistically more likely to get more results. If you take two equally (un)attractive people, one who only asks a few people but has social skills and the other who asks lots of people but has no social skills, I’d expect the person with social skills to get more results. Plus, people can smell desperation and it’s not attractive. The person who isn’t invested in their identity as a sexual being will likely get better results than the person who’s panicking about still being a virgin.
Sylvia Sybil(Quote) (Reply)
“how come there are more involuntarily celibate men than there are women?”
Please provide scientific data to support this statement. And just so you know, “data” is not the plural of “anecdote”.
Keith(Quote) (Reply)
I would never be so bold as to call him unattractive (at least by virtue of the fact that I can’t seem him, and I’m actively trying not to judge on the basis of one comment) but I sincerely, sincerely hope Chris sees the irony in the first two paragraphs of his own comment.
littlem(Quote) (Reply)
Sylvia Sybil
I agree with the original post. I really wish, however, that people would be a little less quick to say things along the lines of “just don’t appear so desperate”. I am 32 years old, female, have never had sexual intercourse and/or a partner, and yes, I admit, I do feel somewhat desperate and hopeless about that. Sure, not having those things is not a “cosmic tragedy” as someone put it earlier – it impacts my life in really negative ways that go beyond “simply” not having a partner, though. For example, since all my friends have partners, and since at least the people in my social circle tend to bond more closely with people that have lives similar to theirs I am somewhat out of the loop. So not being in a relationship actually does not only mean that I do not experience the kind of intimacy people usually do experience with their partner (which, to be clear, is something I miss a lot), it also negatively impacts at least some of my friendships. Apart from that, having had very few people express any interest in me over the years (and for the record: pretty much all the ones that did express any interest were either drunk or more than twice times my age and hit on me in the street in really creepy ways) kind of does make me question my worth as a person. I do not blame anyone for my situation, I know that certain traits about me (that go beyond my physical appearance although I am sure that plays into it) make me less attractive to a lot of people. In addition, I am certainly am not angry with any of the men I have fallen in love with who were not interested in me – most of them are or were good friends and wondeful people, after all, and that did not suddenly change because they don’t find me attractive. But I really wish people would stop pretending that it is just a question of “stopping to be desperate” or “being more confident”. Congratulations if you have control over your feeling to a degree that allows you not to feel desperation and/or serious self-doubt if you have been rejected for years and years. I do not have that kind of self-control, however, and I do think that a lot of people in my situation wouldn’t have it either.
sannanina(Quote) (Reply)
sannanina,
Hmm. I have mixed feelings about your response. I think what I said could be interpreted problematically, but I also think you missed my point.
For starters, I didn’t mean to imply that lack of confidence was a personal failing or something that can be fixed with rainbows and sunshine. It can be beyond control (especially when we get into introvert/extrovert dynamics) and it can be damaging. What I said earlier could sound like “just get over it” and that would be a bad thing to say.
However. I’m also uncomfortable around people, sometimes to the point of anxiety. I’m a geek, I hang out with a lot of geeks, I’m very familiar with varying levels of social insecurity, especially in regards to romantic/sexual interrelations (being queer doesn’t help me there, either. Flirting without fear of gay-bashing? What’s that look like?). This isn’t what I was talking about.
My “desperate” comment was directed at the people who alternatively latch on to someone and cling like there’s no tomorrow, and complain about how everybody focuses on their bad qualities and they “should” be focusing on the good. I’ve encountered many of these people; mostly but not exclusively in geek circles. That is a failing of basic social etiquette that borders on creepy. People like this act like they’re entitled to other people’s time and attention, rather than a give and take system from which all parties are free to walk away.
CosmosStars appeared to me to be exhibiting some of these symptoms (speaking of “Person B” as she were obviously below him on a social hierarchy and assuming that her gender was the reason she had more social success than he). My advice was directed at him in hopes he was genuinely asking for some possible reasons for his lack of success, rather than just looking for someone or something (gender) to blame.
Nobody is obligated to put up with antisocial and creepy behavior from other people. Not even if you have a really good reason for your behavior. If you come on to people really strong, they’re absolutely entitled to get the hell away from you. Even if your intentions are pure, even if you’re just socially awkward, no one is obligated to be your friend or your lover.
This is the part of your statement that makes me think you missed my point:
Because what’s that got to do with the price of tea in China? I was never talking about what one is allowed to feel. I was talking about behavior and the results it is likely to elicit. If you’re panicking over sex and hitting on someone with the visible expectation that they must solve your problem, they are entitled to find that creepy. In fact, I submit that if they don’t find indiscriminate desperation to be a turn-off, they’re likely to be predators*.
Basically, humans are social creatures and we need social skills to get along with each other. Not having social skills isn’t a moral failing, but it is an individual problem and no one else is required to fix it or compensate for it for you**. It sucks having self-doubt where your social skills are supposed to be. I am right there with you. But so what? Whose problem is that? If you want help, you’re free to ask, but nobody is obligated to help you, and they’re definitely not obligated to offer the type of help you want. Nobody is obligated to put up with behavior they find unacceptable.
* “likely” is not the same word as “guaranteed”
** I’m not talking about ableism in which people treat the mentally disabled / neuro-diverse as if they were subhuman. Everyone is entitled to basic human respect.
Sylvia Sybil(Quote) (Reply)
sannanina,
I think you missed her point, too. The commenter she and I were responding to was basically saying “Here are two women in my life who are even more repulsive than I am, how DARE they not fall in love with me! Clearly, they are nasty people!” You OTOH say good things about the men who haven’t requited your feelings for them. Cosmostars isn’t sad that he’s unable to find a healthy relationship of some sort; he’s angry that women aren’t providing him the bedpost notches he needs to maintain social status with his friends.
And SS was trying to point out that guys who are hung up on “scoring” or “losing it” aren’t really interacting with women; they’re just looking to use women to achieve status with their male pals, and women pick up on that. Hence the “desperate” remarks. Maybe “desperate” wasn’t the best possible word choice, but what we’re talking about here is not feeling lonely and desperate within yourself, which everyone feels sometimes (yes, including your friends who are all in relationships), but putting off the vibe that someone OWES you sex/love just because you feel you need it so badly. Which is pretty much the opposite of some of what you said.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
FYI: The comment by CosmosStars is in violation of our comment policy. Because it went through before we started enforcing the policy, and has spurred an interesting conversation, I’m leaving it up.
Maria(Quote) (Reply)
Jennifer Kesler,
Sylvia Sybil,
I got defensive, and I apologize for that. Some of the things that I said were not really a reply to what you said, but a reaction to things that I have heard from other people.
I have a bit of a problem with this statement, though:
Maybe “desperate” wasn’t the best possible word choice, but what we’re talking about here is not feeling lonely and desperate within yourself, which everyone feels sometimes (yes, including your friends who are all in relationships)
I am aware that everyone feels desperate or lonely at times. But ongoing loneliness is quite a different beast. It is a bit like telling a woman (or man) who genuinely is physically unattractive in the eyes most people that “everyone feels insecure about their appearance at times” or that “no one is attractive to everybody”. That is true, sure. And I do not want to minimize other people’s pain/problems. But things do not suck equally for everyone. And the problem with ongoing loneliness is that being lonely can result in even worse social skills/ social anxiety over time, which of course is not exactly helpful for overcoming loneliness.
Also, I would never think that someone “owes” me sex or companionship, and I agree that people who think that they have a “right” to those things need to engage in some major self-reflection. I think, however, that continuous rejection can lead to feelings of bitterness, irrespective of if you are a man or a woman. I have come pretty close to becoming bitter and I have thought that things are damn unfair, and it took a lot of energy and effort to fight those thoughts and feelings. In the end I kind of accepted that things are indeed unfair to some degree but that this is nobody’s (or at least no individual’s) fault – not the fault of the people that rejected me, and not my fault either.
Sure, I can work on my social skills (and I do), but as a socially anxious, not conventionally attractive, fat woman who on top of that has no relationship experience whatsoever at the age of 32 (which is not exactly a plus in the eyes of a lot of people) it might very well happen that I will never have a partner. This is partially the result of cultural standards of attractiveness that I cannot influence as well as simply bad luck. And while I loathe it if guys behave as if women “owe” them sex or a relationship or whatever, I also think that similar dynamics ARE at play for at least some of these guys as well.
sannanina(Quote) (Reply)
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