(I was particularly taken with the brief description of the Self-Othering process at the beginning, having Been There/Done That/Got the Literal Scars on my arms from it all.)

I just don’t think it’s authentic to say that there is specific behaviour that is good/bad etc. because all of our behaviours, particularly in relationships, are defined by the contexts in which they’re operating

I don’t agree, but I think the specifics of our disagreements get into more philosophy than I have the training to describe or the time to take on. Because about eighty percent of the time, I *do* agree; there’s just this twenty percent of behavior, mostly in what I consider the “physical or emotional abuse” category, that I don’t think is okay even if the other person or people in the relationship are willing to put up with it. (e.g. Goreans, Prairie Muffins, people who threaten suicide when their girlfriends aren’t paying enough attention to them…)

And as far as the debateably obnoxious rather than actually abusive stuff goes…well, a lot of manners depend on saying “okay, the majority of people find this obnoxious, so, unless you know someone very well and have discussed it with them, don’t do it,” (leaving the door open when you’re in the bathroom seems like a good neutral example), which I’m fine with, as a general rule. It does get abbreviated, especially when you’re in reaction-mode rather than teaching-mode, to “Oh my God what is wrong with you? People don’t DO that!”

And most of the time, teaching-mode is best, but I’m of the school of thought that there’s a place for reaction-mode: it gets across the fact that no, most people really *don’t* like this way of operating, guy who leaves the door open, it is *too* a big deal, and so forth.

It’s more the judgments of people who know me, and know that I’m in an alternative relationship agreement, who still find it necessary to tell me that what I’m doing is bad/wrong/obnoxious/offensive/inconsiderate etc.

But here I totally agree, yeah. If you know someone has a consensual alternate arrangement going on, and they seem happy…well, you back off, IMO, and keep your opinions to yourself. It’s a bit like religion or other hot-button issues that way: you can assume I’ve heard of Christianity, or monogamy, or veganism, because I’m an adult with an Internet connection, you can likewise assume that I will look into it more if I WANT TO, and, until I do, you can assume that you’re only going to annoy me, not convert me.

And I realize that, on the other hand, there’s a place for having valid concerns about a friend’s relationship, and expressing those concerns: I’ve done the “So, your SO’s a manipulative little jerk and you could do better,” song-and-dance routine a time or two myself, and the “Um, your job is sucky, and you have the credentials to get a way better one,” routine was one of the best things my friends did for me. But I think that:

a) That has to come from a real place of concern for the friend, and a real belief that he or she doesn’t know part of the score–whether that’s behavior on the third party’s part or a sincere belief that the person deserves better. If you *know* that most jobs don’t make you work until ten, or that there are monogamous people out there, then you’ve made an informed choice based on what you value, and there’s no need for us to bug you.

b) You really do have to give up after a certain point. I *tried* three or four months of “Dude, we both know your current partner is a horrible manipulative asshat, WHY are you still with them?” back in college. Didn’t work; caused a fair amount of bad feeling, especially as I’m, um, not known for my diplomacy.

Okay. I ramble. I stop rambling now.

Because what they mean is that it’d be wrong for them, and that’s perfectly fine to express – I get a lot of “I could never do that but more power to you”s and that’s all right – but what they actually say is more of an attack on my character than a reflection of their own feelings.

I’m a confirmed misanthrope, so don’t be too shocked at my cynicism here, but I actually think deep down what they really mean is that it’s not okay for you OR them, because they need you to reaffirm their lifestyle choice by mimicking it. I’m not saying they’re bad people or they don’t really care about you… I think it’s a basic human flaw that we build cultures that depend on everyone conforming, and then a lot of people who conform find themselves feeling very insecure when confronted with people who didn’t: conforming hasn’t worked out the way they’d hoped, or maybe the choice it required was wrong for them, and you end up serving as a reminder that they could opt out of all that… if they had the courage.

That’s based on my perception of my experiences as someone who’s mostly always been celibate by choice. When I was in my teens and 20′s and everyone else was learning to date and have relationships and I was perfectly happy not to bother, people would actually get ANGRY with me and act as if I’d attacked them by simply minding my own business and only reluctantly answering their nosy questions about why I wasn’t begging to blow some cute guy who’d just shown the slightest interest in me (the answer was that I just didn’t care in 99.9% of cases).

As people get older, they tend to modify that behavior so it seems more reasonable but I think the motive is still the same. They’re not secure in the choice they made (to do what everyone else is doing) and someone who follows her own path makes them feel more uncertain than ever. To this day, I know the warning signs that a friend is going to suddenly pull away from me for fear she’ll be led astray by my example of non-conformity.

And WOW I hope that didn’t sound superior. There’s usually a connotation of “I’m so much smarter than the pack” when one talks about not being a conformist, but I don’t see it that way. Conformists can be smart people who see the advantage to conforming and are willing to make some compromises in that area, and non-conformists can be fools who are making unusual choices just to rebel rather than because those choices are right for them. The only thing I wish people would do is own their choices, whatever they are, and not care what choices other people make.

I’ll bow out on that topic now, since it seems like that’s not where the thread is heading anyway. If you’d like to start a new topic, BetaCandy, I’d love to hear your thoughts though!

Izzy:

*However*, it’s a little unreasonable to expect people’s judgments about what’s obnoxious behavior in a date to take into account all possible special arrangements. Violating certain standards of etiquette, while totally fine in the context of an intimate relationship where you’ve worked all these things out, is still going to look insensitive and prickish to outsiders.

…this is difficult for me, because on the surface I agree: it’s impossible to expect people not to project their own experiences/emotions/expectations onto others, particularly when we’re talking about strangers. What strangers think, doesn’t bother me personally so much, because they don’t know me or my situation and frankly I’m probably nothing more than a passing thought.

But there’s still a line for me between the subjective statement “I find this obnoxious behaviour in a date” and the pseudo-objective statement “this is obnoxious behaviour in a date” – which is again, projecting based on one’s own experiences and whatnot. I just don’t think it’s authentic to say that there is specific behaviour that is good/bad etc. because all of our behaviours, particularly in relationships, are defined by the contexts in which they’re operating. … although this is starting to sound like lecturing psychobabble again so I’ll just move on to my next point, which is -

So, strangers, meh. Can’t do much about ‘em. It’s more the judgments of people who know me, and know that I’m in an alternative relationship agreement, who still find it necessary to tell me that what I’m doing is bad/wrong/obnoxious/offensive/inconsiderate etc. Because what they mean is that it’d be wrong for them, and that’s perfectly fine to express – I get a lot of “I could never do that but more power to you”s and that’s all right – but what they actually say is more of an attack on my character than a reflection of their own feelings. And I don’t see why I should tolerate that.

BetaCandy: Good analogy. Another one I like is the TV: if I’m in a sports bar with a friend and she glances up at the TV to check the Red Sox score for a second, that’s okay. If, however,s he gets absorbed in the game-day highlights and totally loses track of the conversation, I’m gonna get annoyed. Likewise, if a guy briefly glances at another girl as she’s passing–enh, he’s human, whatever. But lingering glances and obvious distraction are not okay.

Sarah: I get that, and that’s cool within the context of your relationship. *However*, it’s a little unreasonable to expect people’s judgments about what’s obnoxious behavior in a date to take into account all possible special arrangements. Violating certain standards of etiquette, while totally fine in the context of an intimate relationship where you’ve worked all these things out, is still going to look insensitive and prickish to outsiders.

It’s like how I *can* slap my roommate on the back and say “Dave, you stupid bastard, what the fuck have you been doing with yourself all day?” and it’s all affectionate between us–but I wouldn’t find it terribly surprising if an outsider, unaware of context, thought I was a total jerk.

But that’s what comments are for, right? To bring new perspectives and ways of looking to a post? I think it’s important to also discuss the why of how this commercial works from a slightly queerer perspective – to question the very premises on which it operates, namely that marriage = heterosexual monogamy = not looking.

This is very true. The way your first comment came off, though, it seemed to me as if I were being lectured for failing to see it the way you saw it rather than as an invitation to talk about things another way. I know that wasn’t your intention, but it still made me a bit confused and on the defensive.

I’m still not entirely convinced this thread is the place for deep, meta discussion about heteronormativity. Honestly, it’s a subject due its own post. If I’d written the original post in that vein, then no problem. Any offshoots I tend to bring up are, I think, not too far off the main premise.

I’m probably repeating what BetaCandy said.