Now that you’ve had a little time to reflect on the mind-boggling controversy that occurred when Rebecca Watson suggested that propositioning strange women in elevators was creepy, and men – including Richard Dawkins – whined in response and wondered however would poor menz ever get laid again if they couldn’t creep women into giving it up, I want to tell you a couple of things you need to understand.
Rejecting a strange man’s sexual advances is scary. That’s right – scary. Some women will tell you it’s not and that Watson was overreacting, but no one’s experience is universal: the fact is, a small minority of people cope with rejection by lashing out in violence, and when those people are bigger and stronger than you, or have power over you, you can end up getting hurt. It is completely rational and sensible to think defensively when you’re in a situation full of unknowns. A man you don’t know may respond to your rejection with a friendly, “Well, couldn’t hurt to try, right?” or he may turn out to be a rapist who likes showing teh bitchez they can’t reject him, or he may fall into that huge gray area in between.
This should explain two things to you: why women are often unclear in their rejections (“I’m busy/engaged/have a headache” rather than “No, I would never be interested in you”), and why women are creeped out by situations men think women should find flattering.
Does anyone else suspect that when heterosexual men envision these situations, they’re seeing only beautiful women, without judo training, propositioning them to do something they really want to do? Of course. That’s how privilege works [required reading]. So let me present a more fitting version (previously discussed in comments, if it sounds familiar):
You’re a man. A really big, muscly guy gets in the elevator with you. He tells you he’d like to fuck you. You feel keenly aware that if he wanted, he could easily just spin you round, pull down your pants and fuck your anus as hard as he wants. You know it can happen, because this has happened to lots of men you know. You’ve seen it on literally thousands of TV shows and movies ever since you were a kid. And you also know that no one would believe you if you reported it, because he’s well-dressed and looks extremely respectable. And he wants to fuck you, and he can rape you if you refuse. Maybe you should just give him a blow job, to be safe. But then wouldn’t that be the same as being raped, since you don’t want to have sex with this guy? Yes, except, well, you’d retain some small measure of control. As you prepare to get on your knees, you think, “God, I hope he doesn’t ask for my telephone number afterwards.”
Do not read this as an argument that Watson’s situation was this terrifying. From what she’s said, it wasn’t. I’m just showing you an extreme because apparently some of you just don’t have a clue, and an extreme might be required to penetrate the dense fog surrounding your thinking processes.
Maybe a better example is Greg Laden’s wonderful post about encountering a dog, and how he’s not afraid of dogs generally, and he knows how to handle them generally, but sometimes you meet a dog and have no way of knowing if it’s the sweetest creature ever or rabid and vicious, and how, gee, maybe apprehension in that situation is absolutely justified. Ya think?
Whichever example you prefer, that brings me to my second point. Rejecting a strange man can, in the right circumstances, be so scary that some women will simply skip the rejection and do what’s being asked, in hopes that they won’t be brutally raped (because having sex you don’t want in order to avoid a worse fate is rape, too). Remember when we were all being told by public awareness campaigns in the 80s: do not fight with muggers, just give them the money and they’ll leave you alone, but if you fight with them they might kill you? That’s what women have known about men since forever, and so many of us are extremely pro-active in our avoidance of strange men in uncertain situations. And, yes, that’s a pity for you genuinely nice guys – but you if you are nice, you’ll blame rapists, not women, for making things difficult.
And that, folks, is one of the many ways rape culture benefits “nice guys”, or, men who are not legally rapists but are perfectly comfortable with manipulating women into sex rather than looking for mutual sexual experiences. Rape culture provides a ton of ways to frighten women into allowing you to rape them without anything resembling physical violence:
- Creeping women out by targeting them in the way a rapist would. Read Laden’s post. Be aware of the ways male rapists approach adult women: they come up to us in areas where we’re alone, where there are no witnesses, where “nice girls” shouldn’t be, when we’re obviously intoxicated, etc. Your best bet is to meet women in other types of situations. If you strongly feel the need to hit on a woman in a situation where you’d be creeped out if a big burly guy hit on you, the way to do it is: offer her your number instead of asking for hers. Ask her if she’d meet you for coffee in the hotel dining area tomorrow morning rather than right now in your room. Indicate your interest without pressuring her into demonstrating reciprocation. That’s exactly how rapists don’t think. (And honestly? If you think you need rapist tactics to “get laid”, you probably really are just a rapist at heart.)
- Being her boss, and having that long history of bosses retaliating against female employees who don’t submit to rape – and the long history of a society that didn’t understand why this was wrong until the 90s. Again, use a method acting trick to figure it out. You’re a man. Your boss wants a blow job. You know there’s not another job half this good available to you in the tri-state area. No one’s going to believe you if you claim he demanded this from you, because everyone thinks he’s so nice.
- Promoting the idea that your religion states that a woman can never deny her husband “sex”, when your religion is dominant in your culture and, perhaps, government.
These are just a few ways that rape culture enables men to rape without physical duress or fear of consequences. I bet commenters can name some others.
Rape culture works because rape is a history every woman shares. If you haven’t been raped, you know someone who has. Or you’ve been in situations where, in hindsight, you think you narrowly and luckily avoided being raped. You don’t know a strange woman’s history with rape culture. Just as she needs to assume you are a rapist until she has good reason to believe otherwise, you should assume you’re dealing with someone who’s keenly aware you might be a rapist and taking sensible precautions. You are not entitled to resent her for making that impersonal assumption. You are entitled to resent rapists for setting up a culture in which such assumptions are, sadly, quite rational based on the facts she has before her.
And rape is only the beginning of rape culture enforcement. There’s also the fact that women are far more likely than men to be murdered by an intimate partner, or a serial killer with misogynistic issues, or get beaten half to death when they’re rented out by one man to another for sexual purposes. Rape is traumatic as hell on its own, but just in case that’s not enough, we have to keep in mind that some men won’t be happy until we’re dead. And when we meet strange men, we don’t have a magic way of telling the harmless majority from the lethal minority.
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Rose, I realize we live in a culture where perhaps a guy who would never “rape” someone may be confused into thinking that physically pressuring her for sex isn’t “rape” behavior. But I think his behavior toward you was absolutely alarming.
We are animals. This is what rape apologists remind us of every time they describe a Really Nice Boy being converted temporarily into a rapacious beast by some “whore’s” tight clothing. So not only is the comparison between meeting two unknown strange creatures completely valid and not insulting at all, it’s actually perfect as a response to the rape apologists who think a man can simultaneously be a complete dog-like slave to his hormones and fit to run the world.
Laura,
I’m not sure it’s possible to create a perfect analogy, but your efforts here are very good. (Mine is also problematic in that it could be viewed as using homophobia to meet its goal.) How do you convey to someone who has NEVER lived with the constant cloud of rape hanging over him what it’s like living under that cloud? It’s like trying to get someone who’s never lacked for plenty of money to understand what it’s like to be relatively poor – you’d have to get him to agree to a thought experiment in which you follow him around all day, pointing out all the choices he wouldn’t have if he were less wealthy. I tried to condense the fear/feeling of choicelessness into one thought experiment story, but I don’t expect many people to get it.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
I’m a man, a physically large man of stocky muscular build. Even though I’m really a bit of a wuss, I have a certain look on my face that both men and women can find intimidating. There’s not much I can do about this, I am built the way I’m built, and I look the way I look. Having said that, I am always aware of the way someone might perceive me, and take pains not be in a situation where they might feel intimidated by me.
You see, when I was an eleven year old boy, I had to stay the night at the house of a friend of my father, and he tried to rape me. The terror and confusion of the event has never left me, especially the feeling of being in the presence of someone much larger and stronger, and being totally at their mercy. I fought him off and made it absolutely clear that I would not stay quiet about what was happening. Thankfully he gave up but I spent the rest of the night awake and shivering with fear.
In some ways I feel grateful to have had an experience which gives me some insight into what it’s like for women most of the time but I grew up and became someone that doesn’t have to worry too much about attacks from strangers. I can’t imagine what it’s like to have to go through life thinking about the possibility of attack, all I can do is listen, and hopefully alter my behaviour so I do not contribute to this climate.
Thank you for the article and the discussion.
Cruithne(Quote) (Reply)
I agree that we are animals. We just don’t like to think we are, and we get upset when called on this.
I’m mainly saying that people get upset with these analogies (no matter how apt they are) because they feel it assumes things about them that they, rightly or wrongly, feel are incorrect. When a statement upsets people the dialogue tends to break down. I’m not saying we all need to be nice and not upset anyone about rape, I’m saying that an analogy that elicits anger instead of reflection doesn’t accomplish much. I think saying that rape-apologists use the “animal” argument to justify their actions so men shouldn’t be insulted by it is a bit of a strawman argument that conflates being upset with being a rape apologist in a way that I think shuts down dialogue rather than getting anyone to think about what they are doing.
The trick is to get men to understand that what they are doing is not being received with the intentions they think it is. I think most men are totally unaware of the fear of rape that hangs over so many interactions. This is why I think Laura has such a good analysis on the emotional reactions men have to The Elevator Story and why it is so important to find a better analogy. Because reading through comments on the elevator story over on Skepchick.org makes me think that a lot of people are just getting angrier with the folks that don’t see it there way than actually teaching or learning anything.
Jhamin(Quote) (Reply)
Shoot, I failed to close a quote tag….
Jhamin(Quote) (Reply)
Laura,
That’s a clever way to do it, though I could just see a flat denial of any similarity between the two, since there’s one detail different. (That’s snark at the hypothetical denier, not you).
SunlessNick(Quote) (Reply)
Jhamin,
While I agree that dialogue breaks down in these discussions, I’m not sure the “animals” part is the real reason. Rather, it tends to be more of an excuse to be angry with the dialogue, in my experience. So those angry at the animal comparison have their excuse to derail or end discussion into something which is the root of their discomfort, that being that someone has called them on their privilege.
This goes further than words like animal, and it’s the same for words like racist or sexist. I know that when people of color are describing their experiences and use phrases which can read as generalizing white people as racists I get defensive–because until I force myself to stop being stupid I am more upset that I’ve been compared to racists or I see that I have racist actions or thoughts and I don’t want to.
Just because a person who needs to break down their privilege gets upset about something being said doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be said exactly how it IS said. No one should have to make their unprivileged position known in a way that makes the privileged feel comfortable.
So, I understand what you’re saying, and it’s not that I think you’re wrong, because yes–those phrases can seem to make the dialogue break down. But I think it’s more important for them to be said, if that makes sense.
The Other Anne(Quote) (Reply)
Red,
When I was in sixth grade the sister of a friend was beaten to death in the woods beside our school with a bat by her boyfriend.
Megan(Quote) (Reply)
Thank you from the bottom of my heart for posting this, because this is exactly how I feel.
Pavlov’s Cat(Quote) (Reply)
Jhamin, you’re making some very common mistakes.
(1) Those of us who have been engaging with assholes who are more concerned about maintaining their privileges than understanding the cost of those privileges to their fellow human beings know what Anne’s trying to tell you: these people are going to HUNT for something to take offense at, or something they can distort into an inaccuracy, or even a big white elephant – anything to derail the conversation.
(2) Those guys will not convert. Period. Maybe 1 in 1,000,000 of them converts, but when they’re that entrenched, it takes a big personal life event, and we can’t engineer that for them. So these analogies are for guys who are willing to understand, but just haven’t encountered the right people/information yet.
And a strawman argument is when I argue against something you never said. That wasn’t at all the case. And what you’re failing to understand is that it is not my goal to open a dialog with rape apologist assholes. There’s no point in it, and you will discover that for yourself if you ever seriously get into it with them. There is no quicker way to achieve activist burnout.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Jennifer Kesler,
these people are going to HUNT for something to take offense at, or something they can distort into an inaccuracy
Even – or perhaps especially – it’s something they use themselves, such as the comparison of men with uncontrollable animals, which is one of the pillars of rape-apology and victim-blaming.
SunlessNick(Quote) (Reply)
Jhamin,
Jennifer Kesler,
Right, and the analogy is NOT to make the point that men are anything like dogs. The point is that dogs can be either very friendly or very vicious, and sometimes it’s hard to tell what they’ll do when you first meet them (unless you are skilled in dog language). So dogs are just a stand-in for something that you have to treat as potentially dangerous unless you get assured of the contrary.
But the guys would just get stuck on the dogsdogsdogs part. Again, nobody is actually calling men dogs. You could make the analogy using children and strangers (treating all strangers like danger, cuz it’s safer!), or stores and the general public (loss prevention, lack of “honor systems”, cameras, etc. all assume the general public will steal, because it’s safer to operate from that viewpoint than it is to trust everyone and get fleeced).
What floors me is that, in all the other above examples, it’s accepted as common sense. But when women (going by statistical odds that say men are far more dangerous to her than anyone else, plus womens’ own personal life experiences of rape and molestation) apply the same common sense it is somehow this monumental injustice.
Something else is going on here. These critics must fundamentally believe, on some level, that women do not have the right to assess their own risks and protect themselves. Hmm, wonder why that could be?????? :rollseyes:
JT(Quote) (Reply)
I want this t-shirt! I applaud your apt and succinct subversiveness!
eldgie(Quote) (Reply)
JT,
What floors me is that, in all the other above examples, it’s accepted as common sense.
Well, I think there are hard feelings around being treated as a potential enemy in other circumstances too. Adults with no accompanying children get treated with quite a lot of hostility if they spend any time in a park where a lot of children are playing, at least in my area. Men more so than women, but women too, and both the men and women I know complain when it happens to them. People grouse about the stores that search everyone’s bags, or make you leave your laptop in a poorly watched front desk area when going in to shop. I imagine that if someone were to tell a large peaceable dog about people being nervous about potentially hostile dogs, the dog would be hurt because *it* doesn’t bite people, but this one isn’t an issue because we’re not hearing from the dogs.
Nobody likes feeling as if they’re being classed as a (potential) evildoer on the basis of “no data yet”, but it happens, and it’ll keep happening as long as there are evildoers.
Laura(Quote) (Reply)
I think you’ve really nailed it right here. Kids are entitled to protect themselves from kidnapping, rape and/or murder because kids aren’t culturally expected to be providing sex to anyone. But society is so… well, it’s actually constructed around the fucking of women – why else would queer men be threatened and intimidated into fucking women for the patriarchy? – which is sick on so many levels, one of which is that when we talk about protecting our bodies from men who want to use them, all some men hear is that the away team is denying something to the home team, and that must not be allowed to happen.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
So, the giant dookie that is the skeptic movement’s reaction to RW is continuing at PZM’s page.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/07/rebecca_watson_at_cfi.php#comments
If anyone’s interested.
I read the first five hundred or so comments but it had quickly devolved into feminist skeptics using ablist slurs to shut down concern-troll, mainsplaining and incredibly dense MRA-types and, well, I was soon unable to tell who was supposed to be the rational, reasoned feminist anti-privileged defenders and who were the ignorant folk who wanted to know what “the reason for sexism” or something was. Urgh. But the video in the link of Warren doing a talk is pretty good.
It would be nice if for once this sort of post at any atheist blog didn’t result in such a predictable pile of fail. I am getting pissed-beyond-reason at seeing WAY TOO MANY hypocritical atheists use sexism and misogyny and violence against women as go-to reasons for being anti-religion, while at the same time being unreasonably, irrationally, and fervently anti-women. I had to remove myself from Reddit after only months of regular browsing because of the rampant misogyny–not from the religious but from my one-time favorite subreddit r/Atheism.
Skeptic movement, you are such a disappointment.
The Other Anne(Quote) (Reply)
The Other Anne,
Good link! And there’s a transcript for those who can’t watch the video.
ITA re: misogyny in the skeptic/atheist movement. Elevatorgate came soon after I started exploring the movement and it’s convinced me not to invest any further in it. Or as one pharyngula commenter put it, it’s easier to make a place for atheism in the feminist movement than it is to make a place for feminism in the atheist movement.
Sylvia Sybil(Quote) (Reply)
Cruithne,
I didn’t mean to ignore you here – just wanted to let you know, your story inspired a new article I’ve been contemplating for a long time.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Patito Gigante, excellent point.
eviltwit(Quote) (Reply)
Ugh, I just encountered some garbage comments on a streaming site I frequent…there’s no possible way to engage with someone who makes remarks along the lines of “YOU’RE A TYPICAL FEMINIST, IF A MAN STARES AT YOU OR TALKS ABOUT YOU, YOU THINK IT’S RAPE”, is there? >_>V
Casey(Quote) (Reply)
Casey,
Not unless you sink to the “you’re a typical misogynist, dismissing any opinion coming from a woman that doesn’t kowtow to your own…” rebuttal.
sbg(Quote) (Reply)
Casey,
Or what about “OMG BECAUSE OF YOU FEMINISTS ITS A CRIME TO FLIRT AND HOOK UP THE HUMAN RACE WILL DIE OUT (but that’s just what you want isn’t it you feminazi!!!)!!”
Yes, because rape and sexual harrassment is exactly the same as consensual flirting and “hooking up”:, It really makes me wonder about these guys that they conflate these things.
or, also along these lines: “OH NOES HOW IS A POOR NERDY GUY SUPPOSED TO KNOW HOW TO TALK TO WOMEN YOULL THROW US ALL IN THE FEMINIST GULAG FOR LOOKING AT HOT CHICKS SOMETHING ABOUT SOCIAL AWKWARDNESS!”
Sigh. Geek Feminism kind of covers this: http://geekfeminism.org/2010/03/28/but-women-are-an-advanced-social-skill/
But yet again, I have to raise an eyebrow at the fact that these guys just can’t distinguish harrassing behavior from genuine affection/flirting.
JT(Quote) (Reply)
JT,
My theory is this: the only consideration in their minds is “But I need to get my dick in a pussy.” They’re not distinguishing ways of doing that. I don’t even think they particularly want sex, or will like it if they get it (they’ll probably be too nervous to enjoy it). They just feel all this social pressure to get their dick in a pussy, and satisfying that pressure so they will get social rewards for not being undersexed is all they’re thinking of.
I think these guys are so ABSOLUTELY OBLIVIOUS to what it’s like to be anyone but themselves that they don’t realize there IS a difference between getting your dick in a pussy via rape or via a consensual encounter. They may also lack self-esteem to the point where they don’t think anyone WOULD have a consensual encounter with them.
Ironically, the reason why these guys have trouble talking to women is: male privilege. To develop rapport with people, you need to be able to see their POV. Some of us struggle with this due to lack of socialization, unhealthy socialization or degrees of autism. But I think many of these particular guys are struggling simply because no one ever suggested to them that there IS another POV than their own. Commercials certainly didn’t. Movies didn’t. TV didn’t. No media did. If their parents and teachers don’t bother – because part of male privilege is society’s belief that it’s okay for men to lack empathy – then that boy goes into the world thinking of girls as these things that wink into existence when he sees them, and wink back out of it once they’ve rejected him.
How could someone who only exists when you’re aware of them suffer from rape?
I’m sure some of the guys who say these things are full-on pathological narcissists who are incapable of empathy and hate women. But I think some of them are fully capable of empathy, they’ve just never been asked to use it.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Ooo, good link! I too am perplexed and irritated by those who think they have to talk to me differently. I’m a geek, you’re a geek, this isn’t hard.
I’m toying with the idea of writing a list of geek pick-ups/conversation starters that don’t work, aimed at the socially awkward. I haven’t yet because I’m not sure there’s a large percentage who would benefit; I think most people understand that changing the conversation back to something I changed it away from and obviously know little about isn’t a way to start a dialogue, just a monologue. So instead I’d have to explain the base psychology, that being lectured on things about which I don’t know and don’t care isn’t sexy. And honestly I don’t think that type of person is ignorant of that fact, I think they’re more concerned with whether they’re having fun than with whether the other person is.
I think this is the root of the problem in many unpleasant flirting encounters I’ve had. There’s a subset of men who don’t pick up on social cues I think are pretty obvious, like changing the subject, looking away or checking my watch. There’s a large overlap between this subset and geeks, but not exclusive. What these men don’t seem to understand is that I’m not rejecting them because they’re bad people, but because I’m not having fun. Really, you’re not the center of the universe, I’m not here to invest time and energy into evaluating your deservingness. I’m a human being, selfishly only interested in my own pleasure. If I’m bored, I will wander away. It’s that simple.
And take this with a grain of salt because it’s anecdotal, but I’ve never once had this problem with a woman.
Sylvia Sybil(Quote) (Reply)
@Sylvia
I have, but only with women located higher in the social structure than me — like white ones, older ones, etc.
Maria(Quote) (Reply)
Maria,
Hmm, you have a point. I was thinking exclusively in terms of flirting, in which context I’ve never had a problem with women of any demographic, but in more general terms I have experienced this from women. Mostly from ones who are older and make more money than me.
Sylvia Sybil(Quote) (Reply)
JT,
Yes, because rape and sexual harrassment is exactly the same as consensual flirting and “hooking up”:, It really makes me wonder about these guys that they conflate these things.
One of the clever things about this post’s is how it draws attention to the conflation between rejecting rape culture and rejecting men.
SunlessNick(Quote) (Reply)
Thanks for the replies, y’all…but considering how the writer of those prior garbage comments also said once (in apropos of nothing) that “A BUNCH OF BITCHES ARE DOING A SLUTWALK NEAR ME” and “IT’S THE STUPIDEST SHIT EVER, BUNCH OF BUTTHURT CUNTS” I think maybe he’s not so much oblivious and desperate as he genuinely hates women…then again, maybe it’s just the “Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory” at work (after all, he calls black people “nigs” and says that since he’s half-Mexican it’s okay >_>V).
Casey(Quote) (Reply)
Wren,
It already happened. I can’t remember on which of the monster threads it was, but one of them actually had the gall to say “Well, OBVIOUSLY if she felt threatened she shouldn’t have gotten on the elevator with him.”
Yeah. Never mind that it was he who followed her onto the elevator.
*eyerolling forever*
littlem(Quote) (Reply)
littlem,
Yep, we’re supposed to:
–Magically know who’s a rapist
–Curtail our mobility to avoid being raped, so rapists can roam freely
–Never get into remotely sexy situations where men are around
–And yet somehow find a husband and make some babies!
I think what these conflicting messages boil down to is basically, “If you would just accept rape as your cross to bear, ladies, it would make things so much easier on the rest of us, ‘kaythanxbye!”
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
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