For those of you who like to get into online discussions about activist issues that are important to you, I’m curious which strategies you favor, and which ones have worked well or badly for you. For example:
- Do you get into it with the staunchest anti-women (or whatever) person in the thread, or ignore that person and engage mainly with the less passionately anti-woman folks?
- Is there a point at which you’ll walk away from a particular topic, or a particular discussion?
- Have you ever converted anyone to your point of view (whether you meant to or not)?
- If someone’s being a real jerk, do you use a no-holds-barred approach in decimating them, or do you take the high road and keep it classy? Which approach do you find more effective?
- Do you get into debates where your opinion is the minority one, or stick to more “safe places” for people who hold views that are largely like yours?
- Are there some issues you just can’t debate?
- If someone’s attacking others in the thread, do you defend them or stand up to the attacker in some way?
- Have you ever noticed your activist work (and it is work, even if you’re “just discussing” things) impairing your ability to sleep, giving you adrenaline rushes from anger/frustration, or otherwise affecting your physical comfort or health?
These are not the only questions you can answer in the thread – they’re just to give you an idea what I’m wondering about. It’s also okay if the topic wanders a little as we get into the finer points of analyzing our own behavior.
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Cinnabar,
*nods* In fact, one of the reasons I’m getting a tumblr is so that certain folks know that I’m behind them. As a lurker, you can’t really do that and as a ‘guest’ you don’t really let yourself out there.
Maria,
Ah, I see! …You know, there should be more How to Care for Your Extrovert posts out there. One good idea for young extroverts to learn is not just to know when to speak up(like some of us introverts need to) but to learn what to speak up about. But that’s something that, like I said, deserves it’s own post.
Hold the phone, how the hell did people take extroversion for shallowness?
Ebb(Quote) (Reply)
I can see mistaking extroversion for shallowness – we’re (wrongly) encouraged to mistake introversion for depth. Appearances can deceive.
I have two things to add to all this. First, I’m an introvert, and I think a lot of people here are, too. A lot of introverts like to sound off online because, relative to the offline world, it’s a more comfortable space in general. I think the actual cause of lurking when you agree with what you’re reading has to do with the culture of silence we have in this society. As we talk about a lot here, society enforces a code by which we’re not supposed to talk about certain impolite topics, and this works out great for rapists and their ilk, because ignorant people are easier targets for the sorts of crimes we mustn’t discuss. But there’s another part of the code: certain people aren’t supposed to speak up. Society will let us know who we should listen to, and how dare we get uppity and start making our voices heard. I’m not excusing any individual, but it’s true that people are merely mindlessly reinforcing this code when they:
–Silence a minority (often with the tone argument), or tell the minority what it’s allowed to express and feel
–Silence someone who dares to share a personal experience with rape or child molestation or other taboo topics (lord, even breast-feeding, see LJ scandals of years past)
–Silence a minority who enters a majority-dominated space (career, forum, fandom, whatever)
–Support a different behavior standard for those supporting the status quo and those speaking against it
–Fail to moderate/ban people who speak for the status quo, even when they are incredibly rude, hostile or even threatening
–Assume people in certain positions must be worth listening while people in other positions must not be.
And so on. And then we tell people NOT to express simple agreement – Rush Limbaugh called his own fans “dittoheads.” (And yet, doesn’t that create a picture of Limbaugh and a big army of followers? Scary, isn’t it?)
All this bullshit combined ensures that the biggest bullies will always get to direct society, and your voice will never be heard.
To be clear, the point of this comment is NOT to shame anyone into commenting outside their comfort zone. Nor is it to blame any lurker ever for anything. I’m just saying: if you’ve ever wondered why you don’t feel you can speak up, this is my theory about the answer. I think there are huge, scary social forces working to keep us all silent. I don’t think it’s really any easier for extroverts. I think it’s only easy for people who are somehow insensitive to those social forces, one way or another – and unfortunately, that state is usually reached through having a whole lotta privilege.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Thank you to those of you who de-lurked to compliment the site! It does indeed mean a lot to us!
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Ebb,
There really should! Even today, I sometimes have to remind my husband and dear friends that I recuperate best with vocal love and support with a variety of friends and family and while out doing something… so for me the life trajectory where you get married and start spending weekends in feels not only really unnatural but also really soul deadening. How To Be An Adult In Relationships has some really useful tips, but generally they’re romantic.
Maria(Quote) (Reply)
Patito Gigante,
Hey there. I wasn’t specifically picking you out from a crowd of invisibles; I hope you don’t think that!
My own story is that, a few years ago, I was afraid to post any creative writing of my own in front of other people. I finally decided to do it, and breathed a huge sigh of relief when no one came down hard on my writing (note: not hard on *me*, but my writing). Soon after, Jennifer started up this blog. It started out small, and grew an audience, some of whom her more recent articles go into; it’s not always the easiest audience. It’s hard when you’re an introvert, and have been trained by your family that even if you have opinions, that your opinions count for little, even when you’re learning how to have informed opinions. And I’m that introvert.
I know all about not commenting on an article because I have no background on it–but on that same note, on other articles, letting someone know that you’re paying attention (at least here) is a good thing. Even for a short sentence. And that can be hard, to let yourself be heard. And it is okay to note that you’re a new commenter, if you have more than one or two words to say.
And welcome to the land of outspoken commenters, btw. Thank you!
Gategrrl(Quote) (Reply)
I’ve been rattling about the internet for about oooh… thirteen years now (oh gods, I feel old) having got my start on Usenet and moved over to blogs and web-based discussion. Below are a collection of things I’ve learned:
1) There are some people in any community who have Views With A Capital Vee, and who aren’t going to change said Views short of a concentrated application of high explosive.
2) Sometimes, the best thing anyone can do is point out that Person A has a bee in their bonnet about topic X or Y, particularly for newbies and lurkers. It can be as simple as a “don’t mention the War” statement, or it can be a full-on, provocative “don’t feed the troll” bait-fest.
3) For drive-by trolls, engaging them in actual debate doesn’t achieve anything. They’re just going to state their piece, and bugger off to the next target on their list. So the easiest thing to do is to point out the logical flaws in their argument, along with things like spelling errors, and provide marks as per high school composition. If there’s one thing the troll personality really, really loathes, it’s not being taken seriously.
4) If two people are involved in an argument and nobody else is participating, they’re more than likely boring the pants off everyone else. At which point it’s safe for even a long-term lurker to speak up and point this out – even something as simple as “guys, take it to email” can do it.
5) On-line argumentativeness is seasonal. It really gets to an annual peak around November through January, when the Holiday Season coincides with the year end, and when everyone is starting to really get stressed. It also goes through cycles of peaks and troughs, getting more intense around election times (which is why things are starting to pick up now, with the US Election That Never Ends getting going again). Fortunately the September that Never Ended has died down to a low-grade mutter.
6) Dog-piles are a normal feature of any active community – particularly one where a lot of people share a common interest. If you’re tempted to take part in the dog-pile, feel free to write your post, but don’t post it until you’ve read all the comments.
7) If you’re the one being dog-piled on, don’t try and answer everything. Just shut up and listen for a bit. See whether there’s a common thread to the comments in response, and wait for the immediate dog-pile to slow down before posting your response. If you’ve been misinterpreted, write a follow-up post explaining what you meant, preferably without sarcasm, snide comments, snark, or humour – all of which can come across very poorly online.
8) The blogowner is the one who owns the space. If the only reason you’re at the space is to disagree with the blogowner, I’d suggest starting your own blog. It’s very easy, and often free.
9) Arguing with anyone who can cut off your commenting privileges is a daft move. Even if they are patently wrong, completely incorrect, and clearly off with the fairies. They still have the ban-hammer, and they can ban your arse. So don’t argue with them, mm-kay?
10) Nobody has the right to be 100% correct. Not even you. Not even me.
I’d also point out that one of the greatest aids to coherency, clarity, and a reputation for level-headedness in any community is the use of Notepad as a composition window, and the willingness to let things sit while you finish reading all the comments and find out whether someone else has already covered the ground you’re going over. (I also find being an Aussie – and therefore perpetually at least 8 hours and 6 months out of synch with everyone else – helps a fair bit, too).
Megpie71(Quote) (Reply)
Megpie71, that is a truly awesome comment. Excellent advice there, particularly “The blogowner is the one who owns the space. If the only reason you’re at the space is to disagree with the blogowner, I’d suggest starting your own blog. It’s very easy, and often free.” That’s how I ended up starting this site, actually. And somehow people often manage to feel their rights have been infringed by its existence, yet they advice to just not worry about TV shows that offend.
It’s interesting that you mention pointing out troll spelling errors. The last time I did that, when taking down a comment, I got a couple of (now banned) commenters insisting I was being ableist and classist because surely the troll was poor and/or had a learning disability. There was absolutely no evidence of either, and *I* found extremely classist the assumption that someone from a poor background would have bad grammar skills (and that someone with bad grammar skills has a poor background), and I found ableist the idea that someone with a learning disability would be the sort of self-pitying misogynist this troll was (or vice versa).
All of the trolls I have seen unmasked turned out to be white guys over 30, of reasonable intelligence, educated enough, middle class or higher, and American (when they’re really evil, it’s great fun getting them fired, since they often do their trolling from the company computer while bored at their nice-paying middle class job for which they needed a degree).
Some people were also eager to make excuses for the Starcraft trolls, too. I don’t get this attitude, personally. It’s extremely important not to replicate the oppression that’s been put on us, but how can that possibly result from us making fun of trolls in our own safe space? I mean, all they have to do is not drop by and comment, and they’re golden. As they pointed out repeatedly in fish-story style, their site was 10, no 20, no eleventy billion times bigger than ours.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Wonderful collection of advice!!
Indeed it does. Thanks!
Brian M(Quote) (Reply)
Jumping off the “bleeding into your real life” discussion, has anyone else noticed this straining their real life relationships? Not necessarily the anti-*ism stuff, but the activism side of it?
I bring this up because late last night, my sister’s boyfriend dropped in unannounced so we/she could meet his father. His father is an absolute waste of oxygen. He managed to insult five different races in the ten minutes he was here (his half-Black daughter-in-law asked him to stop using the n-word. Woe is him. He is terribly oppressed). I didn’t feel I could say anything because my mom hates confrontation and I didn’t want to upset her just before she went to bed. But she and I ended up getting in a fight after they left anyway. Her stance is that racists won’t change so why bother getting all riled up at them. I feel it is worthwhile, if only to make myself feel better about hearing a racist use the n-word to denigrate Blacks in my own fucking home zomg.
It’s an ongoing conversation between me and the rest of the family. Many of them agree with me but just can’t handle the level of intensity I put into it, so out of respect I try to steer the conversation away or tone it down. Others of them are actually *ist and love to tell me how wrong I am for caring. There are people to whom I’ll say, “I won’t see The Help because it is a racist and sexist movie,” and others to whom I’ll say, “I’ll won’t see The Help because the author is being sued for plagiarizing it.” I feel bad about doing this sometimes but I need a break from the arguments sometimes.
I have a few coping strategies with them, though. My uncle is a racist of the, “We live in a post-racial society now! You’re the one who sees race so that makes you the true racist!” camp. I gently wind him up by talking about how hawt Will Smith is or showing him the interracial family I created in The Sims, and then watching him struggle to correct me without mentioning race. I do the same for gender, heteronormativity, etc. His expressions cheer my black little heart right up.
Sylvia Sybil(Quote) (Reply)
Sylvia Sybil,
OH YES I KNOW THIS PAIN. Yeah, my mom always felt a duty to correct people if they said racist things, but was often too shocked upon hearing them to gather a response in time. I am very very fortunate to have a knack for coming up with witty, dry, or politely forceful things to say in these situations, which don’t typically stir up a lot of conflict. I say them not in hopes of converting the racist, but in hopes of reaffirming to the rest of his audience that we are not all in agreement with him.
BUT there are plenty of situations where it’s impossible to do this without potentially starting a little war or breaking up a relationship. I guess I’m just… I’m not an absolutist. I believe in moderation, even in something as important as crusading for rights. Besides, if you go into lecture mode every time someone expresses something you disagree with, it’s like crying wolf. So I do think we have to pick our battles and cut ourselves slack for letting it slide occasionally.
I’ve also found that if you spend enough time around someone who has some bigoted views, you can eventually get into a deep conversation where you have plenty of time to explain what’s factually inaccurate or oppressive about their views. Again, I don’t think I’ve changed anybody’s minds, but I do think I’ve gotten a few people to think enough that they became less enthusiastic about said views. That’s how I’ve gotten my views corrected over the years, and you know what? Some of my views are nearly 180 to what they were when I was a kid (I had some misogynistic ideas back then, over-emphasizing women’s contributions to a sexist world compared to men’s), and they got that way not because a single person converted me, but because people planted seeds of doubt that eventually took fruit.
So that’s another thing I figure we’re doing, sometimes.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
I tend to err on the side of saying less, especially when a conversation is further along and most view points have gotten representation of some kind. I try and speak up when I feel like I have something to add, and making fun of trolls is pretty fun, especially when they’re the “you just can’t take a joke” kind.
There’s some places where I worry that I’m just giving them the attention they so desperately crave, or drawing out discussions that don’t need to be drawn out. It’s especially confusing with the way the internet ages; there are some places where an articles a few days old hardly ever get new comments, and other places where the same discussion can last several years.
Quib(Quote) (Reply)
A simple, “This” or “Word” or “ITA” can mean a lot to an activist writer.
Oh! It’s like theater!
Er, that is… when I first started going to live theater, my instincts were built by years of going to movies. At a movie, you laugh at the funny bits, but quickly, and then you hush, so that you don’t drown out the dialogue, and you don’t ruin everyone else’s experience. Or at least, that’s what I was raised to do: movies are for being quiet at. It took me a while (and friends who were acting, not just in the audience) to clue me in – in live theater, the actors want you to respond. If everyone is laughing hysterically, they can *pause the dialogue* until you’re done. And they’re energized by the audience responding. So then I let myself laugh a lot more, and react a lot more in general.
I’m mostly a lurker, like I’m in class – and all the commenters, who are saying things more cleverly or knowledgeably than I, are the professors. I say something only when I think nobody’s said it yet and it’s worth saying. But that’s the wrong reaction, at least the wrong reaction to be *trying* for, the way being still silent is the wrong reaction to real actors.
Laura(Quote) (Reply)
Sylvia Sybil,
I FEEL YOUR PAIN TOO! That’s my exact problem and I don’t have a knack for coming up with quick responses like Jen. I’m still trying to figure out how to handle it because confrontation is a big scary thing for me too. For now, every time someone makes a crappy remark in my presence, I reinforce to myself why it’s wrong and imagine calmly explaining my point to them. I may not have the guts to actually do it yet, but atleast I’m strengthening my own resolve to stand firm. And if I ever get the chance to explain it in a non-hostile environment (like to a friend who’s a generally good person but has some problematic beliefs), I have an idea of what to say.
It took a long time for me to come to this state from “boiling rage-filled desire to scream and shout and punch things”. It’s not ideal but I figure it’s atleast a few steps closer to being confident enough to say my piece and not run and hide in the corner when things get messy.
Cinnabar(Quote) (Reply)
1.)Do you get into it with the staunchest anti-women (or whatever) person in the thread, or ignore that person and engage mainly with the less passionately anti-woman folks?
Both though I tend to go after the less passionate ones.
2.)Is there a point at which you’ll walk away from a particular topic, or a particular discussion?
If I get to frustrated and others are debating them I will walk out. I don’t walk out if its just me, I like to stay till the end.
3.)Have you ever converted anyone to your point of view (whether you meant to or not)?
Yes! But only a few times, most people I have met are awfully set in their ways.
4.)If someone’s being a real jerk, do you use a no-holds-barred approach in decimating them, or do you take the high road and keep it classy? Which approach do you find more effective?
I usually start off classy but I can get rude after awhile. Honestly I have no idea which is more effective.
5.)Do you get into debates where your opinion is the minority one, or stick to more “safe places” for people who hold views that are largely like yours?
I’m a bit cowardly and tend to stick to safe places.
6.)Are there some issues you just can’t debate?
Yes. I don’t do debates where xyz existence is questioned or ones done to death like abortion.
7.)If someone’s attacking others in the thread, do you defend them or stand up to the attacker in some way?
Yes even if they aren’t on my side.
8.)Have you ever noticed your activist work (and it is work, even if you’re “just discussing” things) impairing your ability to sleep, giving you adrenaline rushes from anger/frustration, or otherwise affecting your physical comfort or health?
Too often…though I don’t regret it the slightest
Jumbo_fish(Quote) (Reply)
oh dear, sorry for the jumbled together comment. I typed it in word and the format didn’t carry over.
I’m just delurking to say I think this place is great.
Jumbo_fish(Quote) (Reply)
Jumbo_fish,
I fixed your formatting a little.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
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