For those of you who like to get into online discussions about activist issues that are important to you, I’m curious which strategies you favor, and which ones have worked well or badly for you. For example:
- Do you get into it with the staunchest anti-women (or whatever) person in the thread, or ignore that person and engage mainly with the less passionately anti-woman folks?
- Is there a point at which you’ll walk away from a particular topic, or a particular discussion?
- Have you ever converted anyone to your point of view (whether you meant to or not)?
- If someone’s being a real jerk, do you use a no-holds-barred approach in decimating them, or do you take the high road and keep it classy? Which approach do you find more effective?
- Do you get into debates where your opinion is the minority one, or stick to more “safe places” for people who hold views that are largely like yours?
- Are there some issues you just can’t debate?
- If someone’s attacking others in the thread, do you defend them or stand up to the attacker in some way?
- Have you ever noticed your activist work (and it is work, even if you’re “just discussing” things) impairing your ability to sleep, giving you adrenaline rushes from anger/frustration, or otherwise affecting your physical comfort or health?
These are not the only questions you can answer in the thread – they’re just to give you an idea what I’m wondering about. It’s also okay if the topic wanders a little as we get into the finer points of analyzing our own behavior.
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I guess it depends on the day. I think you don’t always have the spirit to engage in a conversation with trolls XD But what I found useful it’s not using certain words that trigger their standard excuses or that they use as a cue to make an straw-man argument. The point it’s not use sexism or similar words but to describe the situation. Usually then it-s more difficult for them to attack you. Also, if you feel tricky, you could use the same insult the usually against you. You know, hysteric and other thing they associate with women. That gets on their nerves and puss them to make mistakes. But, again, I guess i could be a bit of a troll too. Funny to see that they don’t have the thick skin they claim we need to grown XDDDDD Guess logic it-s their arch nemesis
V_Vendeta(Quote) (Reply)
I forgot, calling them emotional in a condescending manner also it’s a good choice XDDDDDD
V_Vendeta(Quote) (Reply)
The latter has definitely been an issue for me — I care SO MUCH about feminism, literacy, educational funding, and class/race issues that sometimes I spend a lot of time carefully crafting an overly awesome reply — with links, research, etc — and then get really mad because the kind of person who’s spouting racist/classist/sexist things is normally NOT the kind of person who’s gonna change their mind.
Maria(Quote) (Reply)
That’s actually one of the reasons I tend to avoid that kind of debate unless it’s happening here at Hathor… I don’t have the emotional fortitude to debate with people on the internet that often. I have too many feelings!
Maria(Quote) (Reply)
These days, I tend to stick to the places where I think the more blatant sexists, homophobes, etc will not show up that often: I tend to be of the opinion that varieties of That Guy don’t change, and certainly don’t change by debate, and *really* certainly don’t change by debate on the Internet.
I can still get pretty profane, but I’m more apt to go for the throat in other ways lately–”Nobody likes you and nobody ever will” or similar–though I use “fucking” as punctuation a lot of the time.
I will not really *debate* abortion, gay rights, women’s rights, sexual freedom, or the need for a social safety net. I will yell at people on the other side of those issues, if the environment is right, but I don’t expect to change their minds; I will just walk away if the environment doesn’t support yelling or flaming.
Isabel C.(Quote) (Reply)
All of those questions hinge on whether it’s a safe space or not. I’m just not into being the Lone Feminist anywhere. Because people in misogynistic spaces are just not interested in anything I have to say. They twist rational feminist arguments around to conform to the myths they’ve been fed about feminists. I tried that once, and it helped nothing. All the “nice” people stayed quiet and the misogynists became even bigger bullies. Honestly, because I am female they never see me as a human being worth considering anyway.
Sometimes, if I am in a place I know is not *hostile*, but friendly and perhaps clueless, I might “argue” with what I call “feminist-lite”. Just throw little nuggets out there, nothing too radical.
I’m not a political blogger; I’m a comic artist, so I feel ill-equipped to really debate. Finer women than I do it so much better.
JT(Quote) (Reply)
JT,
This is my experience as well. (Including being an artist, not a political blogger.)
Regarding the last question, I do struggle a lot with frustration, anger and other negative impacts at times. But I noticed I don’t really care much about trolls or anti-feminists any more. What really gets me these days is when I’m debating in a supposedly save space and you are attacked and all the “nice” people do nothing. I once was a member of a forum and debated about a movie and the guys were starting to mansplain why this or that isn’t sexist/racist/etc. They were also quick to start calling me names and and saying I’d make a big deal out of nothing, yadda yadda, you know the drill. What got me was that the owner/admin of the forum jumped in – not to warn those bullies to cut out their shitty behaviour but to censor me cause I dared to use the evil word “bullshit” (yes, they actually replaced it with ** cause apparently it’s such an evil word that a forum with adults is horrified by it). That was the final straw for me cause if that’s the kind of atmosphere they want (bullying is totally ok as long as you don’t use certain evil words!) I say good riddance! But yeah, it really upset me and still does to some extend. :c
Sabrina(Quote) (Reply)
From my limited experience, getting into it with the hardcore haters (glorified trolls, them) only ends up fueling them. No matter how reasoned you are or what you say, they can mental gymnastic their way into thinking you are proving their point. End result: you will tear your hair out and they will think they’re awesome, or you will ban them and they will be poor, widdle and persecuted.
Do not engage. Good rarely comes from it.
sbg(Quote) (Reply)
I just want to second what everyone here is saying about not engaging with trolls/extremists.
I think my strategy, which I’ve kind of fallen into, has simply been to be quietly present –I’m not out to ‘convert’ anyone, or out to preach, but I speak up (although perhaps quietly) when I see someone wrong. For example, my bf and I were watching an episode of So You Think You Can Dance a week or so ago, and he was getting really irritated listening to one of the two guest judges talk. I asked him why, and he said it was because she had no background in dance. I pointed out in a casual sort of way that many guest judges have no background in dance, whereupon he informed me that this particular guest was a model known for ‘taking her clothes off’. I let a puzzled silence unfold for a moment, then inquired how whether or not the girl posed for naked pictures affected her ability to judge dance. The bf kind of blustered a bit, but I let it drop, because I think he’d gotten the point.
I’m not quite sure how this would play out in an online context, but I suppose the best I can say is –don’t refrain from posting because you’re afraid no one agrees with you. One of the nicest things about the internet is the way it facilitates walking away*. And even if the person you’re disagreeing with still disagrees with you, the point was not necessarily to reach them, but all the silent lurkers who might not have come across your point of view otherwise, or who might not have realized how to explain what bothered them, or who might not have realized they weren’t the only person bothered.
*I may be a bit naive here, having never experienced any real internet stalking or harassment, so… yeah. Please let me know if my suggestion is unrealistic.
Raeka(Quote) (Reply)
Raeka,
You can definitely participate with minimal engagement with the trolls. Good point.
sbg(Quote) (Reply)
This is my primary strategy. Rarely are the trolls worth engaging with, and I’m not going to pour my heart out futilely for 99 of them until I reach the one that’s worth it. But it’s worth pointing out the ridiculousness for the lurkers, and if I have an investment in the community, to help set the stage of what is acceptable behavior around here. I’ve noticed trolls are usually far more offended by other commenters calling them out than moderators and admins; for some reason, getting scolded by Mommy doesn’t have the same sting as getting scolded by your peers. (Generally speaking, anyway. A large segment of trolls target a specific person, usually the site owner.)
I’m also not into being the lone activist. I don’t necessarily need a safe space, at least not one by the definitions of internet lingo, if I have some backup. It does a lot to boost morale; without that support, I usually wonder what’s the point of being the lone voice in the wilderness.
And yes, it affects me physically quite often. I feel sick to my stomach, hot in a feverish way, and frantic. If I let it go on, if I don’t use the strategies I’ve learned for dealing with stress, I won’t be to sleep or do anything else until I calm back down. I’ve learned to recognize the symptoms in myself and force myself to disengage before it gets to that point. It happened to me just this morning; a well-known site that’s good with atheism and feminism ran a thread specifically targeting the idea that they’re not allowed to call criminals “crazy”. I was planning to comment, but while reading through the other comments I could feel my blood pressure rising and I had to leave silently. But I don’t always realize in time, or I think I can make it better, or something.
Sylvia Sybil(Quote) (Reply)
When I get into debates on activist issues (usually sexism), I admit that I can’t resist butting heads directly with the staunchest opposing view. But I really don’t have much hope for actually changing that person. It would be nice, but mostly I hope to reach those who are on the fence.
I think that debating activist topics helps bring visibility to those topics and support for the people affected by them even if you can’t persuade anyone to think differently. A lot of the time, people are hesitant to speak up about sexism/racism/sexual-orientationism/etc even if they are against the discrimination. Understandably so – there’s a lot of societal pressure not to be upset about these issues, and speaking up on them can generate a lot of hostility. When you do choose to speak out, you remind other people who feel like you do that they are not alone.
I always try to be polite in discussions, no matter how heated it gets. I’m not sure I always succeed, but I try. Especially on the internet, when it so easy to misunderstand tone and attitude.
I’m not sure what works well as a debate method. I like to use logical statements, which people often don’t understand. I like statistics and anecdotal evidence, though statistics often fail to tell the whole story and anecdotal evidence is obviously personal. If possible, I like to ask questions of those I disagree with; I feel like a lot of times they think they have logical reasons for thinking as they do, but when you keep drilling deep enough you can find out what’s really behind it; this rarely seems to have any effect on the person you’re arguing with, but often helps carry your point to the others around.
I have very much noticed these sort of discussions “getting to me” – leaving me tense and angry, or not able to sleep. Sometimes its the small things that are most upsetting, because it feels like you should be able to do more about them. A while ago, a man posted a very nice and well written discussion about his life and growing up gay on a site I frequent; it was hidden from public view for being “off-topic”, despite numerous articles of the same topic from straight individuals. In the whole, this in itself was hardly the worst thing in the world – they didn’t even delete it, just hide it from casual view, but it was such a silly, stupid and obviously homophobic thing to do, from a site that I largely consider good people and friends, that it had me fuming and furious.
And there definitely times when I just have to quit with a topic, especially once its started going in circles.
Brian M(Quote) (Reply)
For every asshole who dismisses a well-written response, there are a dozen demoralized lurkers whooping and pumping their fists in the air.
Patito Gigante(Quote) (Reply)
Patito Gigante,
In which case, then it would help if the lurkers would unlurk *to begin with*, and take some of the weight of carrying on conversations onto themselves. There’s a dedicated number of people who consistently post here and contribute. If you only lurk, and don’t contribute, don’t expect the beleagured writers and posters here to bouy you up. COMMENT.
Gategrrl(Quote) (Reply)
Gategrrl,
This.
I think lurkers (a) think they have to say something really substantial, or else it’s not worth commenting or (b) don’t realize how much support activist bloggers and commenters need.
But that’s not true here, and I don’t think it’s true on most blogs I read. A simple, “This” or “Word” or “ITA” can mean a lot to an activist writer. Just de-lurking to say, “This” is totally worthwhile, especially if a blogger has taken on a controversial topic or shared a personal story to provide much-needed anecdotal evidence.
You don’t have to say anything brilliant or witty or even substantial. You don’t have to risk putting your foot in your mouth or getting into a conflict that will stir up your anxiety disorder or make you feel stupid. You can simply de-lurk to say you agree, you support, you care.
Silence is extremely hard to interpret.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Jennifer Kesler,
You can simply de-lurk to say you agree, you support, you care.
Then I’ll say all that now.
SunlessNick(Quote) (Reply)
Unfortunately I’m the type who loses sleep, stops eating, and becomes very painfully anxious about the “simple” act of participating in online discussions. I also have severe difficulty expressing myself in writing, to the point that I often spend 30+ minutes composing a single sentence. The more important the idea, the more difficult it is. Often I’ll type one or two sentences in the comment box, deleting and recomposing for an hour or more, all the while questioning the value of my contribution and never feeling that I’ve found the right combination of words until, many commas later, I delete the whole thing and click away, only to be preoccupied with what I didn’t say for the next few days (often coming back to the particular thread and repeating the entire process). Or I do finally hit ‘submit’ and stay up half the night mentally picking apart what I wrote and feeling ashamed of any errors, and worrying that I will be misunderstood and won’t be able to explain myself, and often feeling so ashamed after commenting that I never visit the site again. That’s why I lurk.
Patito Gigante(Quote) (Reply)
Some people don’t enjoy communicating via online forum, some aren’t comfortable discussing controversial topics, and some people just aren’t thick-skinned enough to want to put up with the kind of anger and unpleasantness online forums can generate (I’m speaking of forums in general, not here specifically). Nothing wrong with any of that. Its just not for everyone, and I couldn’t imagine blaming anyone for not wanting to subject themselves to that.
Brian M(Quote) (Reply)
Brian M,
I’mn not sure how saying
is a kind of blame.
Maria(Quote) (Reply)
Maria,
Nor was it, I think, a blanket call for everyone to comment always. I mean, I’m a “staffer” here, but there are articles I do not comment on not because I don’t agree but because I feel underqualified to speak to, etc. I get that feeling, and it’s okay.
Also, Patito Gigante, your comments are lovely, for whatever it’s worth.
sbg(Quote) (Reply)
Maria,
I’m a little confused about what you mean. I was quoting Gategrrl’s comment to show what I was responding to, not to indicate my opinion.
I’m new to this forum, so I apologize if there are conventions that I’m failing to follow
Brian M(Quote) (Reply)
Brian M,
I’m saying I don’t see where she’s blaming anyone. The convention you’d be breaking here in terms of community guidelines would be the straw man one described in the commenting guide, linked to above the comment box.
Maria(Quote) (Reply)
Patito Gigante,
Okay. I have anxiety with comments/debates myself, and was assuming my discomfort level was, you know, it. It sounds like your discomfort is more challenging, which forces me to reassess, so I’ll add this caveat to what I said before: I’m talking about those lurkers who CAN comment without discomfort or ill effects, but don’t. I’ve appreciated all your comments here so far, and hope I didn’t cause offense. I just didn’t realize.
Brian M,
I think the confusion is stemming from the out of context quote from Maria that Patito Gigante was responding to. Based on discussions we’ve had, I’m pretty sure Maria was saying that she gets mad *at herself* for wasting so much time on awesome comments in response to total assholes who aren’t even really listening. Then PG reassured her that lurkers were cheering her on, and then Gategrrl expressed frustration that the lurkers don’t let anyone know their thinking/feeling. Perhaps you thought Maria was mad at the assholes, and Gategrrl was blaming lurkers for not making the assholes either behave or go away (or something). Hope this clears up the confusion.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Raeka,
I do the equivalent of that on aforementioned “clueless but friendly” sites. I think it is important to speak up as long as the sites has proven itself mostly good people. That would be an example of the “feminist-lite” I was talking about too: you make a subtle comment to get people thinking about their entrenched prejudice, but don’t go into advanced rants about the ubiquity of slut-shaming and rape culture.
But if I am on any site just infested with trolls or misogynists, I won’t bother. One time, I was a member of this forum where this bully of an evo-psych extreme misogynist would post *a multitude* of screeds on the inferiority of women, how we are all emotional, irrational gold-diggers because SCIENCE! His contempt for women dripped out of every post and the only females he was nice to were the naive teenage girl posters (because that’s what women should be: clueless, nice to a fault and deferring to his wisdom!).
We didn’t get along. >:)
But, the forum had lots of “nice” people who never argued with him and some even were like, “oh he’s not that bad.” They saw him as nothing more than a harmless eccentric? But he WASN’T. I’m convinced that his posts were scaring away new women posters. They never banned him or removed the most offensive posts. So after a while, I wondered why I even stuck around. There are lots of other forums I frequent that are quite awesome and don’t tolerate misogynist missives. And the forums aren’t even “feminist” ones! It’s very simple: don’t be (or allow) assholes!
I mean seriously, how long would this guy have been tolerated if he posted neo-nazi screeds?
JT(Quote) (Reply)
Delurking to say I think this site is awesome and I should comment more, but I always have trouble deciding what to say. I have decades of experience in “If you don’t have anything useful to add, don’t say anything” and I’m better at second-guessing myself than hitting the “Submit” button.
On sites that aren’t so friendly I usually run away without saying anything. I should work on that.
Susan(Quote) (Reply)
Susan,
As a fellow lurker, I agree!
The thing about me though is that a)I’m actually quite shy, both in real life and online and b)I tend to bottle things up until my anger boils over. I don’t know, I just like to collect my thoughts then let them out in one burst, instead of feeling that I’m overstaying my welcome by repeating the same thing over and over(this goes for all sites I frequent, btw) Also, in a lot of communities, “Agreed!” and “Word!” AREN’T welcome. Now that I know it’s okay here, I shall let my presence be more known!
Ebb(Quote) (Reply)
Another thing I was thinking of/reacting to: I feel like in conversations like this people are often really quick to talk about how introverts or shy people may not feel comfortable getting into conversations about activist work, and shouldn’t be blamed for it. Something that bothers me about this is that I often feel like that puts people who may identify as more extroverted at a disadvantage, particularly because there’s a lot of fandom appreciation and support for introverts. If, for example, I’m saying that I feel drained and unsupported when I blog or post about activist projects and get little support from readers, how is it a useful or supportive statement to imply that it’s blaming to say that or accusatory towards readers who don’t feel comfortable posting? Particularly when that kind of conversational affirmation is something extroverts thrive on?
Ultimately, it’s draining to put yourself out there and get little support.
Maria(Quote) (Reply)
See, I don’t think introverts/shy shouldn’t be blamed. In fact, if my statement made prior to yours is what you are referring to, I’m not saying I shouldn’t be blamed for not supporting activist work. My statement was more of an explanation than an excuse; I only wanted to give my reasons as to why I don’t speak up more, but I know I can do better and will do so from now on. Lurkers do no harm but nor do they help.
Ebb(Quote) (Reply)
Being able to stand my ground in front of raging assholes and argue back is a talent I dearly wish I had! For now I generally only speak up in safe spaces, that too only when I feel like I *really* have something useful to contribute, so sadly I don’t say much. There’s also a bit of “Better to be silent and thought a fool than open one’s mouth and have it proved” self doubt that creeps in. But I’m working towards speaking up more often because activist/social justice bloggers and others DO need to know they’re supported, even if it’s just a few people doing it vocally.
For the record, I think every post here is amazing, even if I don’t comment on each one separately.
Cinnabar(Quote) (Reply)
@Ebb No, no, I was more clarifying where I was coming from — I actually hadn’t read your response before posting mine — you’ll see yours was posted a few minutes before mine, when I was probably typing/editing so I wasn’t like, WTF why are there articles like How to Care For your Introvert but none for How to Encourage Your Extrovert? I spent a lot of my late teens being ignored/dismissed by other nerds who took my extroversion for shallowness, and am still prickly about that.
Maria(Quote) (Reply)
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