Home >> Discussion >> Open thread: blow jobs are not empowering

Open thread: blow jobs are not empowering

by Jennifer Kesler on September 14, 2011

Glamour Magazine has an interesting article on the popularity of blow jobs, which they put down several factors:

  • Bad sex education in the US. We teach kids that coitus can lead to STDs, but don’t explicitly state that oral sex can, too, so some kids go away thinking oral is safe, or at least safer. Adding to this is the idea many evangelical kids have developed in the absence of quality adult guidance: that oral sex isn’t really sex (thanks, Bill Clinton), so they can do that before marriage without Baby Jesus weeping.
  • Porn. Porn, the article contends, has created a blase attitude that leads to men asking, “Well, if you don’t feel like having sex, can you at least give me a blow job?” I mean, they’re entitled, right? And women feel that pressure.
  • Empowerment. Oh, god, here we go again. Somehow, women have got it worked around in their minds that blow jobs are for their own pleasure and empowerment, not his. And hate is love and freedom is slavery. By the way, these women are talking about the obligatory first-date blow job, not long-term relationship blow jobs.

I’ve got to tackle this empowerment bullshit once and for all, because I just cannot stand it. What these women are saying is this: “When I give someone an orgasm with no consideration for my own pleasure, I find it empowering.” In that case, please immediately PayPal me as much money as you can afford. I’ll be thrilled, you’ll get nothing – won’t that be empowering for you! How lucky you are!

No, no, no and no. [ETA: I later wrote an article explaining clearly what "empowerment" actually means. It's not just "feeling powerful."]

If you’re in a relationship where there’s give and take on various levels, giving your partner an orgasm without any expectation of reciprocity can be a nice thing. Not empowering – nice, pleasurable, enjoyable. Not empowering. Outside of an established relationship, in that early dating phase where you’re still trying to work out whether this person has anything to offer you, offering a blow job screams, “Please, take from me! I like being used!” Empowering, my ass. It’s like prostitution, except you forgot to charge. He’s the empowered one, not you. He’s learning from you that he’s entitled to pressure every woman he dates to perform this service for him, no matter how she feels, no matter what she wants, no matter how completely incapable he may be of providing anyone but himself an orgasm to save his life.

I’m not saying oral sex is bad, or that there are no reasons for a woman to enjoy performing it. But seriously? Empowering? Under no circumstances is it empowering. He’s not grateful. He doesn’t feel he owes you. He’s not bewitched by you, since half the other chicks in the bar would do the same, and tops of heads all look pretty much alike. Where’s the power?

I think women are so confused about sexuality and their rights to it that they somehow (mistakenly) think blow jobs carry all the benefits of intercourse without the potential unwanted side effects, and performing blow jobs makes them fully sexual not-prudes who are in charge of and comfortable with their own sexuality.

I think you need only look at the behavior of men to see how far off the mark that is. Men don’t derive power from giving women orgasms. Sometimes they derive power from other men based on how many women have given them orgasms, but women having orgasms never enters into any part of the equation. True empowerment would be saying, “Well, if you don’t feel like having sex, could you at least go down on me, lover boy?” Now there’s a sex act that’s “safer” than the ones involving male ejaculation. There’s a sex act that involves whatshisname Mr. Friday Night on his knees, and little worry of repercussions for you.

I think a lot of people just don’t understand what power actually is. Really, the whole idea that sex has anything to do with power is a product of rape culture.

{ 82 comments… read them below or add one }

1
JT (like) (flag)
September 14, 2011 at 10:37 am

“obligatory first-date blow job”

Holy cow am I ever glad I’m not the least bit interested in this whole “dating” thing. Ew ew ew.

Even the (now kind of outdated) “third date obligatory sex” made me retch. Why are sex acts even obligatory at all?

And then there’s this little anecdotal gem: Overheard two male coworkers talking about dating various women (at my old job). They mentioned that if a few dates passed and the women wouldn’t “do anything”, then the guys would move on because the women were “wasting their time”. But some time after that, one of the guy mentioned that he had turned down a woman who practically threw herself at him on the first date. He seemed really put off, saying that if she did that with him she must really be a slut and must do that with every guy she dates.

:headdesk: WTF DO YOU GUYS WANT?! A woman who “puts out” or not?!?!

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2
Jadelyn (like) (flag)
September 14, 2011 at 10:51 am

“…offering a blow job screams, “Please, take from me! I like being used!””

…Or maybe it just screams “I enjoy giving blow jobs!” Because, y’know. Some women just genuinely DO ENJOY GIVING ORAL. Is that really such a foreign concept that you’re going to paint ALL women who offer oral to a cis male partner early in a budding relationship with the doormat brush?

I agree that an obligation or expectation without any thought of reciprocation is extremely not cool, and that we have a culture that rewards women for giving men orgasms and it’s not far-fetched to imagine that being twisted into a “girl power” Cosmo-style empowerment sort of thing. I haven’t been in the dating scene for a long time, so I don’t know how legit or widespread the idea of the “obligatory first date blow job” is, but if it is, that’s absolutely unacceptable and fucked-up, and yes please, critique the fuck out of that.

However, the whole tone of this piece is incredibly shaming of women who do genuinely enjoy and choose to give blow jobs without requiring the context of a long-term reciprocal relationship to do so. It’s the sexuality-version of “Makeup is never empowering no matter how much you enjoy it and find a personal empowerment in claiming/reclaiming your joy in it (and if you ever do it in X context [where x=whatever context the writer dislikes] you are FEEDING OPPRESSION)!”

I would argue that it could absolutely be empowering on a very personal level (not on a social-change level, which is an entirely separate question) to reclaim one’s unique, individual sexual preferences – like giving blowjobs – from the feminist-guilt induced by pieces like this. Fuck knows I had to reclaim my sexuality (sexual submissive, most often played out with a male dominant partner just because that’s who I’ve ended up with) from feminist guilt, and for a long time, I DID regard practice of that aspect of my sexuality to be *empowering*, because it personally gave me strength gained from disregarding other people’s attempts to shame me for my desires. There can be enormous personal power in choosing to do something you *know* goes against messages you’ve received from other people, whether that’s feminist establishment “If you do that, you’re supporting patriarchy!” or “good girls don’t” – which has apparently now become “good girls do but don’t talk about it” or something, and like I said, yes please critique the fuck out of that – or religious indoctrination against sex as sin or whatever.

I really like Hathor Legacy, but this piece is wildly off-base and sounds like it was lifted from and belongs on an anti-porn anti-sex radfem separatist blog.

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3
M.C. (like) (flag)
September 14, 2011 at 11:08 am

True empowerment would be saying, “Well, if you don’t feel like having sex, could you at least go down on me, lover boy?” Now there’s a sex act that’s “safer” than the ones involving male ejaculation.

That “safer” was ironic, right? Because it is possible to pass deseases by male-on-female (or female-on-female ect) oral sex. I just needed to clarify this.
And guys, if you don’t want Baby Jesus to weep, then ask your sex partners to get tested for STDs before you have any kind of sex that doesn’t involve a condom.

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4
mordicai (like) (flag)
September 14, 2011 at 11:13 am

“Under no circumstances is it empowering. He’s not grateful. He doesn’t feel he owes you.”

Oh cool, thanks for speaking on me behalf!

“It’s like prostitution, except you forgot to charge.” Oh! Oh, oh, WHAT? Oh…what?

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5
Lindsey (like) (flag)
September 14, 2011 at 11:19 am

Jadelyn,

It’s possible to enjoy something that isn’t empowering, and being on your knees, sucking a man’s dick, is not really empowering. On several levels, it isn’t. There’s also all the baggage created by our culture that presents giving a blow job as a required act of female submission by which masculinity is defined–music lyrics and videos, marking for Duke Nukem Forever, portrayals pornographic and otherwise.

It’s not empowering. It’s okay to enjoy it or enjoy pleasing one’s partner, but an act of defiance it is not.

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6
Jadelyn (like) (flag)
September 14, 2011 at 11:38 am

Lindsey,

YOU don’t find it empowering. That does not mean it categorically ISN’T empowering for anyone ever. As I said, I agree that our culture has a lot of fucked-up shit around blow jobs. And they are very often depicted as inherently submissive, also required, thus a sort of symbol of compulsory submission in a sexual context, etc. All of that, I agree with.

But why are you suddenly the arbiter of what is and isn’t empowering in some sort of objective sense? Empowerment is a very personal, subjective sort of thing, at least individual empowerment is, which is what I made it clear I was talking about. If a woman personally feels a lot of pressure to *not* give head, then for her, flipping the bird to those pressures and expectations and doing so anyway *because she wants to* CAN be an act of defiance, and thus empowering. For HER. Not for you or anyone else or the wider culture, but for her, it IS empowering, and by saying it just ISN’T and CAN’T be, you’re trying to police what other people can find empowering for themselves, which is really fucked up.

Also, is it just me, or is all this “it’s *okay* to like it” stuff really condescending? “Well, we’ll forgive you for enjoying it, but don’t you ever forget it’s a BAD THING ANYWAY.”

PS: “on your knees” is not the only way to give blowjobs, trust me. Think creatively.

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7
Jadelyn (like) (flag)
September 14, 2011 at 11:43 am

Oh, and something else that bothered me about this post that just crystallized into words:

“Under no circumstances is it empowering. He’s not grateful. He doesn’t feel he owes you.”

So the fuck what? Maybe it’s not about how he feels toward her. Maybe it’s about how she likes giving head and feels like she’s giving the finger to “good girls don’t”/feminist guilt/oppressive religious upbringing/whatever and it makes her feel good to do that. And why the fuck are we suddenly measuring “empowerment” by how the man feels toward her afterward? That is really, really, really fucking not what empowerment is about.

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8
JT (like) (flag)
September 14, 2011 at 11:58 am

Oh FFS everyone. I’m in a het relationship and I enjoy giving them too. The post is not about merely giving BJs.

“However, the whole tone of this piece is incredibly shaming of women who do genuinely enjoy and choose to give blow jobs without requiring the context of a long-term reciprocal relationship to do so. It’s the sexuality-version of “Makeup is never empowering no matter how much you enjoy it and find a personal empowerment in claiming/reclaiming your joy in it (and if you ever do it in X context [where x=whatever context the writer dislikes] you are FEEDING OPPRESSION)!””

She specifically said that this most often does NOT apply to long-term relationships! And what’s so wrong with examining WHY you might like something? To me, that’s what continual growth is all about. Why do I enjoy makeup and BJs? Maybe I will come to the point where I say fuck it,I like it, Imma keep doing it. But feminist critiques of reasons why it might be liked have their place. When we have all been seeped in cultural bullshit since the cradle it’s like a fish trying to realize it’s in water.
I am not a lesbian separatist and never will be (and I’m pretty sure JK isn’t either), but damn if those gals don’t make me think about things in new ways. I just try not to take it personally and close myself off (which helps me in checking privilege as well as really thinking about WHY I continue to do certain societal things or not). And like Lindsey said, if at the end of the day you do it and like it, fine, but it isn’t *empowering*. You know what’s really empowering? Full reproductive rights.

On a personal note, I have heard what men say about their dates being willing to give BJs (and intercourse, too). It has never been anything nice and not disgusting. We need to change the attitude around BJs: knock off the entitlement that men and boys feel around it. Stop men from slut-shaming the women willing to do it. Stop framing it as a power trip; that a guy “got her” (even though she might have been hesitant) to do it for him, haha SCORE HIGH FIVE BRO!

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9
JT (like) (flag)
September 14, 2011 at 12:06 pm

I think we might be conflating “empowering” with “fulfilling” or “enjoyable”. Empowering means to give power, of course, and I think of REAL power. Autonomy, rights, agency, financial command. Not sexual or pussy power, which I’ve been fed from girlhood as the only power a woman could really enjoy. Would men be satisfied with “cock power”? No, because it isn’t actual power.

So I think that’s the issue women like me have when we hear “empowering”. BJs are certainly enjoyable, and sexy, to me. The goal is not to shame or call BJs bad. But as soon as someone tells me I should feel empowered giving them, I’m going to have a problem with that.

***All of this would not be an issue if we lived in a world where women DID have exactly as much power as men. Context is everything! Because women are still considered inferior and sexism is still rampant, especially worldwide, critiques of BJs (and everything else) are absolutely necessary***

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10
sbg (like) (flag)
September 14, 2011 at 12:21 pm

JT,

+1

Honestly, the way I’m reading this is the phenomena of calling a woman giving blowjobs as empowering is one of those things where we try to “take back” a cultural meme which has resulted in (some or many) men believing they are entitled to this method of their own orgasm from (all) women, whether or not (all) women enjoy that particular act, with hardly a thought about her needs/wants.

And I’m really not sure how proclaiming that giving blowjobs is now empowering is “taking back” anything at all.

Yes, of course, some women enjoy giving head; enjoyment =/= empowerment.
Yes, of course, not all men are dickweasel assholes who think every woman is just dying to get on her knees before him.

(ETA just a little tweaking.)

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11
Jennifer Kesler (like) (flag)
September 14, 2011 at 1:42 pm

M.C.,

No, I used the correct terminology. In the 80s, people called sex with condoms “safe sex” until someone pointed out it only reduced (significantly) the risk of HIV/STD transmission – it wasn’t truly safe. “Safer sex” is the term for acts of sex that naturally carry a lower risk of transmission than intercourse or sex performed with apparatus (like condoms) that reduces the risk. Oral sex performed on women naturally carries a lower risk than intercourse or blowjobs, but it’s not “safe”, so I used the term “safer.”

http://www.avert.org/lesbians-safe-sex.htm

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12
Zweisatz (like) (flag)
September 14, 2011 at 1:47 pm

I still don’t get why heterosexual men DON’T compete about giving the most orgasms. Because it’s too difficult? Because you can’t show off with something that would implicate that you actually care about your sex partner?

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13
Jennifer Kesler (like) (flag)
September 14, 2011 at 2:56 pm

Jadelyn: Empowerment is a very personal, subjective sort of thing, at least individual empowerment is, which is what I made it clear I was talking about.

And it’s definitely NOT what I’m talking about. Power, by definition, is about relationships – it’s something you have OVER someone or something else in your environment. What you call “individual empowerment”, I would call “inner strength”, which you can have regardless of how powerless you may be over your environment. While inner strength is of great benefit psychologically, it doesn’t change our status in the world (what JT is talking about). It doesn’t protect us from rape culture, ensure or extend our rights under the law, or make anyone take us seriously. It also doesn’t (by itself) upgrade your individual status in any of these ways, even within your own social circle. (In anticipation someone will argue that having inner strength makes people respect you and treat you better, no, it really doesn’t: for example, a poor woman or WoC who dares to feel strong is Scary and Difficult, and people tend to band against her.)

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14
Ida (like) (flag)
September 14, 2011 at 2:59 pm

I don’t get it, but somehow people think that pointing out oppression is an attack on the oppressed.

Feminist: Women are disproportionately pushed into roles as homemakers where they do thankless, unpaid, insecure work.
Response: How dare you attack housewives?

Feminist: Prostitution exploits low income women who are put into degrading, potentially traumatic situations in order to make a living.
Response: How dare you attack prostitutes?

What is with this? It makes me a little suspicious that it’s intentional derailing and gaslighting, but I do want to give it the benefit of the doubt.

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15
Megan (like) (flag)
September 14, 2011 at 3:25 pm

If some guy I had just met and was on a first (second, third, etc) date with asked me flat out to give him head, I would laugh in his face and walk away. All else aside, that is just the epitome of crassness.

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16
Jadelyn (like) (flag)
September 14, 2011 at 4:09 pm

Jennifer Kesler,

The other problem is that even if we go with your definition and distinction between empowerment/”inner strength” (which I still disagree with; a person empowered on an individual level may go on to work on empowerment on a social level, yes? I don’t see these as being two non-overlapping things, as you seem to), this piece has still got some serious issues with slut-shaming which remain unaddressed here.

“…offering a blow job screams, “Please, take from me! I like being used!” … It’s like prostitution, except you forgot to charge.” That is incredibly fucked-up and shaming of women who CHOOSE to give head early in a relationship – or, heavens forbid, OUTSIDE a relationship. It’s also shaming of sex workers, by using “like prostitution” as such an OBVIOUSLY bad thing that you would NEVER want your sexual dealings to be like it. So it’s like prostitution, without charging (which of course would make it not prostitution, but hey) – so what? Why is this such a bad thing? I guess I just don’t get how shaming women who make a choice you don’t find empowering is supposed to help the situation any. There’s definitely plenty to critique as far as cultural construction of BJs as obligatory, submissive, etc, and the use of girl-power rhetoric when it comes to an act that is so often constructed through popular media to be a submissive act of male gratification offered by compliant (read: good) women, as in the linked article. I just would have liked to see actual nuanced critique instead of slut-shamey “WHY would you EVER give head except in a long-term relationship?!?!” like this.

(BTW, a quick aside to JT: you misread the part of my comment that was about context, in a long-term relationship versus not; I was pointing out precisely what you say, that the author specifically gave the OK to BJs *in* a long-term relationship, which is contrasted with giving BJs in other contexts, thus implicitly [and, I would argue, explicitly as well] judging and shaming those who give them in contexts *other* than in a long-term relationship. Yes, I know the author said BJs are fine in long-term relationships, that’s part of the problem.)

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17
Jadelyn (like) (flag)
September 14, 2011 at 4:32 pm

Ida,

Wow. Seriously? First of all, at least WRT the second exchange written, you’d need to change that to “Feminist: … Other Feminist:” Secondly, I am not gaslighting, nor am I derailing, and I find it amusing, in a morbid sort of way, that I’m being accused of it because I dared to call out slut-shaming and ask for nuanced deconstruction instead of BLOW JOBS ARE OPPRESSIVE THEY JUST ARE OKAY. (At least, I assume this is at least partly directed at me, seeing as thus far I’m the only one arguing about this. If I’ve genuinely taken it too personally, I apologize.)

There are ways to point out oppression without painting the oppressed with a very broad and unfair brush. Saying simply that “prostitution exploits low income women etc” is too broad, and erases the experiences of those who choose to engage in sex work, or those who do it because they have few other options but still enjoy it. There *are* women engaging in sex work who do not want to but have no other options, and they genuinely *are* being exploited, and I would absolutely support both a: critique and activism around the way sex work and prostitution in particular are positioned and treated in this fucked-up kyriarchal culture we live in, and b: seeking to bring better options for those who would rather get out if they could. Working to fix the situation on both the theoretical/social and practical levels, as it were.

Your example given *does* attack sex workers, however obliquely, because it makes all kinds of assumptions about women who work in prostitution, and coercively applies them to *all* low-income women prostitutes (god, type that word enough times and it starts to look *really weird*, doesn’t it?) whether they’re correct or not, denying those women voice and agency to describe their situation themselves.

Anyway, this *is* verging into derailing at this point, so let me just say the tl;dr of it is that it *is* possible to discuss oppression without attacking the oppressed; but that’s not what’s happened here, so I wanted to address that.

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18
DNi (like) (flag)
September 14, 2011 at 4:59 pm

“Would men be satisfied with “cock power”? No, because it isn’t actual power.”

I wish it was, though, because then I’d be having sex with bank vaults. It’d just make me feel so classy.

“Men don’t derive power from giving women orgasms. Sometimes they derive power from other men based on how many women have given them orgasms, but women having orgasms never enters into any part of the equation.”

I don’t necessarily agree with this.Telling a dude that he can’t give a girl orgasms is like telling him that he has a small penis, or that he’s impotent. It’s tantamount to emasculation.

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19
Jennifer Kesler (like) (flag)
September 14, 2011 at 5:21 pm

Jadelyn, you are twisting my words, and spewing strawman arguments all over the place, and that’s how you get on moderation around here.

I’m not saying there’s any context in which it’s automatically WRONG to give bjs, because I don’t think there is one. I’m saying there is no context in which a bj is empowering. No one ever said BJ’s are socially oppressive. And in breaking down the idea that bjs are empowering, and I am absolutely NOT shaming anyone for giving them. (Is there something unclear about “I’m not saying oral sex is bad, or that there are no reasons for a woman to enjoy performing it. But seriously? Empowering?”). You pulled these arguments out of your ass, and you can put them straight back in.

Now. Can we discuss what was actually said in the post? As always, you’re welcome to disagree and debate what was actually said.

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20
Casey (like) (flag)
September 14, 2011 at 5:33 pm

ITT: some people who don’t know what “empowering” means.

EFF-WYE-EYE, I’ve always felt the concept of performing any sort of sexual act as being “empowering” to be laughable. It’s just sex (and thanks to the dude-bros that JT describes, you usually can’t even really enjoy (heterosexual) sex without wondering what sort of awful things the guy on the other end may be thinking about you…that’s why I’ve dropped out of the human race).

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21
JT (like) (flag)
September 14, 2011 at 5:35 pm

(BTW, a quick aside to JT: you misread the part of my comment that was about context, in a long-term relationship versus not; I was pointing out precisely what you say, that the author specifically gave the OK to BJs *in* a long-term relationship, which is contrasted with giving BJs in other contexts, thus implicitly [and, I would argue, explicitly as well] judging and shaming those who give them in contexts *other* than in a long-term relationship.Yes, I know the author said BJs are fine in long-term relationships, that’s part of the problem.)

I did misread it, and I apologize for that. But even so, I’m sure Jennifer wasn’t saying that if you give BJs outside a long-term relationship, you are a slut who needs to be shamed and good girls get married, etc. I took it as it is more likely, in an LTR, that BJs are not as one-sided. In an LTR, there is a long tapestry of give-and-take and negotiation.**

**of course LTRs can be abusive and one-sided, too. It is not a panacea against women being used and abused.

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22
Jha (like) (flag)
September 14, 2011 at 5:48 pm

Jennifer Kesler:
Jadelyn, you are twisting my words, and spewing strawman arguments all over the place, and that’s enough of that.

I’m not saying there’s any context in which it’s WRONG to give bjs, because I don’t think it’s ever wrong or anyone’s business but the individuals involved. I’m saying there is no context in which a bj is empowering.

What, not even a personal one? Would you make the argument that sex isn’t empowering, out of curiousity? O_o

And you HAVE spent quite a bit of time dissing the act of giving blowjobs, AND slut-shamed in the original post, pretty undeniably. So fucking what if women like to give blowjobs early in a relationship? Or on a first date? Or a ONS? It reads like the post is blaming women for men’s overinflated sense of entitlement. It isn’t hard for that to happen, and it could be anything, not just blowjobs. It’s too easy to extend the argument to something like, “how can sexual intercourse on the first date be empowering? It just leads to men expecting sex on the first date! You’re no different from any other hole he fucks!”

I’ve given blowjobs before with no expectation for any return, besides the plain fact that I liked it. I’ve done it because I’d rather do that than have sexual intercourse, which I find distinctly LESS SAFE, emotionally, physically. There is something definitely FAR MORE POWERFUL about having someone’s Very Sensitive Organs vulnerable in my hands than coitus, even if the coitus involves a condom. Yeah, I do find it empowering to get into a guy’s pants like that, with no expectation that I should have to let him get into mine in return. But it’s okay, I guess I’m just delusional or something for coming to my own perspective on it without considering what a guy thinks about the whole encounter.

It’s not that I’m ignorant of the whole dynamic involved in blowjobs, nor the fact that a lot of guys seem to think getting a blowjob is a sign of superiority, or that we somehow see blowjobs as demeaning, an act of submission. Sure, I get that in the larger culture, somehow, blowjobs are interpreted as a sign of submission, and thus, not empowering. But erasing personal reasons for giving blowjobs, personal perspectives for finding the act of giving blowjobs empowering, is also not cool, and just plays right into sexism. And it reifies the idea that blowjobs are demeaning too, anyhow.

And yes, I’ve given money away, PayPaled folks money, with no expectation for return, sometimes without even knowing who they are besides the fact that they need it. And yes, it felt pretty damned great. And depending on the person, yes, it does feel really special to have to been able to help someone out. People have various ways of feeling stuff, yanno.

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23
Jennifer Kesler (like) (flag)
September 14, 2011 at 6:02 pm

JT: I did misread it, and I apologize for that. But even so, I’m sure Jennifer wasn’t saying that if you give BJs outside a long-term relationship, you are a slut who needs to be shamed and good girls get married, etc. I took it as it is more likely, in an LTR, that BJs are not as one-sided. In an LTR, there is a long tapestry of give-and-take and negotiation.**

**of course LTRs can be abusive and one-sided, too. It is not a panacea against women being used and abused.

This. This is what I was saying, and I find is disingenuous that others are claiming to the contrary.

Jha: Would you make the argument that sex isn’t empowering, out of curiousity?

Yes, I would. Rapists often experience sex as empowerment over their partners, but then that’s not really sex, is it, once power gets involved? I’ve known many women who get it on with stars, thinking somehow that makes them (the women) powerful. THAT is what I’m seeking to debunk. Please do absolutely whatever you like with any consenting adult. Just don’t try to convince me it’s “empowering.” Again, JT’s comment: people are conflating something with empowering, and I so didn’t anticipate that level of confusion, or I’d have found a way to clarify it at the start.

Jha: So fucking what if women like to give blowjobs early in a relationship?

Exactly. Again, I never said differently.

Jha: But erasing personal reasons for giving blowjobs, personal perspectives for finding the act of giving blowjobs empowering, is also not cool, and just plays right into sexism.

Except, I never did that. I really struggled to find the wording that conveyed, “Do whatever you like whenever you like” without sounding like a superior giving permission to an underling. So, I have Jadelyn arguing that I did just that (gave permission in a condescending way) and you arguing that I “erased” personal reasons (when I explicitly said there were other reasons for women to enjoy giving bjs).

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24
Megan (like) (flag)
September 14, 2011 at 6:08 pm

Oh my god, you guys.

We’d get a lot farther in the world if we didn’t take everything personally and actually addressed each others’ arguments rather than getting personally offended by them.

“I give blowjobs and I love them!” is not a valid counterargument to anything said in the original post.

And we wonder why, at the first mention of feminism, all anyone can say is, “They’re so damn radical and divisive, I don’t want to be associated with them!”

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25
Casey (like) (flag)
September 14, 2011 at 6:20 pm

Megan: And we wonder why, at the first mention of feminism, all anyone can say is, “They’re so damn radical and divisive, I don’t want to be associated with them!”

This is semi-OT, but what I usually hear is “FEMINISTS ARE JUST IN IT FOR THEMSELVES, I’M AN EQUALIST/EGALATARIAN/WHAT ABOUT TEH MENZ?”

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JT (like) (flag)
September 14, 2011 at 6:32 pm

Feminism itself often has many points of conversation and debate that I *could* take personal offense to.
They criticize marriage as an unequal perpetuation of oppression. I am married.
They criticize housewifery. I have been a housewife.
BJs and sometimes hetero sex itself. I am het and sexually active and I don’t plan on stopping anytime soon.
Femininity practices? Well, I shave, wear female clothing and sometimes makeup.

And I feel weird about pulling out the “don’t take it personal” argument because lard knows dudes bring that one out when they say something sexist. But the difference is that feminists are merely asking other women to *question* and really think about these things. Most feminists I read do not pronounce judgement: they want to shine light on subtle, often insidious societal things that can keep patriarchy alive.

It’s not about YOU, or ME, personally. It’s about the system.

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Jennifer Kesler (like) (flag)
September 14, 2011 at 8:41 pm

There are a lot of comments in the queue right now, and the mod won’t get to them until tomorrow. For now, I’m just going to clear up one thing, and then I’m shutting up for now (you’re welcome to continue discussion).

The definition of empowerment (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/empowerment) is: “To invest with power, especially legal power or official authority.” That’s how I’ve been using it and how I assumed all of you would understand the word (I’m big on using dictionary definitions, in hopes of avoiding these semantic miscommunications). Feeling powerful is not “empowerment” because it doesn’t increase your authority over anything or anyone. By definition, you cannot “find bjs empowering” because they do not increase your authority over anyone or anything. You certainly can find that they make you feel powerful, but that’s a whole different topic. You may also find them fun, sexy, fulfilling, and any number of other positive things, but that is really not at all relevant to the fact that they do not increase your authority in any sense or context at all. They simply do not meet the definition of “empowering.”

That’s not “my” usage, note. That is the dictionary, the final word on what words mean. And this is not one of those words with 17 nuanced and potentially contradictory meanings. It’s a very straightforward term with legal leanings, which is why JT’s initial point was so bang-on.

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Anne (like) (flag)
September 15, 2011 at 1:22 am

Jennifer Kesler: okay, let’s go with the dictionary definition of empowerment. Someone giving head has several kinds of power over their partner. On a physical level, their partner is in a vulnerable position, often naked or partially dressed (and sometimes hobbled by clothing), and with very delicate organs in someone else’s hands. On a more emotional level, the partner giving head is more or less in charge of the pace and style of what’s happening – in charge of their partner’s enjoyment, of the timing and manner of their orgasm, if the giver wants their partner to have an orgasm at all. It’s something like the power you have when cooking someone dinner – it’s not going to get you out of jail or stop a violent assailant, but your choices determine what kind of experience your partner has.

(I should say that there are instances of oral sex that fail to match the situation here – partners giving each other head simultaneously, for example. There’s also all kinds of social singificance assigned to all of this, but I wanted to focus on the basic statement: “blow jobs can never be empowering”. I disagree, for the reasons above.)

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Azzy (like) (flag)
September 15, 2011 at 2:28 am

I think the problem is that the word “empowerment” takes on a different meaning in people’s heads when it’s used in the context of female empowerment. You can say “giving BJs makes me feel empowered!” and the average joe will hear “giving BJs makes me feel feminine, in spite of all those scary feminists who have turned gender roles upside down, but still in a post-feminist and modern way!”. From what I’ve seen, society will only approve of women finding empowerment in things that ultimately benefit (straight, cis) men. Does stripping make you feel empowered? Awesome! The Patriarchy approves! Does playing American football make you feel empowered? You awful feminazi bulldyke, how dare you make the Patriarchy sadface! Put on these hotpants and start apologizing!

I don’t know if I’m making any sense, but it’s just become one of those words that has gained a subtext beyond the dictionary definition.

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M.C. (like) (flag)
September 15, 2011 at 3:26 am

Jennifer Kesler:

No, I used the correct terminology. In the 80s, people called sex with condoms “safe sex” until someone pointed out it only reduced (significantly) the risk of HIV/STD transmission – it wasn’t truly safe.

Oh, ok. I guess it is safer. Just not safe enough imo. I really wish that everybody would get tested regularly for STDs. Which of course is a class problem, because there are countries where you can’t get tested for free…

Casey:
and thanks to the dude-bros that JT describes, you usually can’t even really enjoy (heterosexual) sex without wondering what sort of awful things the guy on the other end may be thinking about you…that’s why I’ve dropped out of the human race.

lol. I guess that’s one reason why I’m a virgin. Because I really don’t want guys to talk with their bros about my sexual performance.

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