This is going to be a rambling post touching on a lot of related topics. Respond to whatever grabs you in comments, because this stuff needs to be discussed too much to fuss over what’s “on topic.”
A winter issue of Vogue Paris featured some photos of 10 year old girls made up and photographed to look like adults. You can see most of them here, but there was one CNN wasn’t allowed to post, and you can see it here. The first question, of course, is: is this acceptable, or a form of child abuse, or something in between? Sound off in comments.
The second question, however, is: can we learn something from this as a society? Jezebel makes a chilling point:
Here are just a few of the models who began working extensively at the ages of 12, 13, and 14: Tanya Dziahileva. Chanel Iman. Karlie Kloss. Lindsay Wixson. Monika Jagaciak. Current Vogue Paris covergirl Daphne Groeneveld. Going back further: Kate Moss. Brooke Shields. Patti Hansen. Niki Taylor. Kimora Lee Simmons. Bridget Hall. Gisele Bündchen. Karolina Kurkova. Linda Evangelista. Christy Turlington. I could go on.
Bold emphasis mine. Those models you see on covers that look twenty-three are twelve. The ones you see that look thirty are, at most, sixteen. Why? I don’t know. The same thing doesn’t happen with male models. Of course, twelve year old boys can’t be made to look like twenty year olds because their bodies develop at a different pace from girls’. But the fact that a young girl can be made to look like a grown women doesn’t mean that’s how the fashion industry should create photo spreads. It’s not like they don’t still need to touch up the photos of prepubescent girls to make them look good enough for the fashion world. And thanks to airbrushing and now Photoshop, even old hags like Julia Roberts can be made to look, well, at least passable! (That was sarcasm: Roberts is beautiful without Photoshop, but it seems Lancome disagrees.)
There’s more from the Jezebel article, which I strongly recommend reading (you have to click each picture to get another “page” of the article):
Girls who get scouted are thrust into a very adult working environment. Suddenly, they become girls who are signed as independent contractors to agencies that may screw them over. Girls who may be asked to do nude work. Girls who in any case have to change clothes at jobs in full view of perhaps dozens of photographers.
And let’s not forget Corey Feldman’s recent remarks in the wake of Corey Haim’s death. He says Hollywood’s big secret and “#1 problem” is pedophilia, and it’s everywhere, and the casting couch applies to kids, too:
“I was surrounded by [pedophiles] when I was 14 years old. … Didn’t even know it. It wasn’t until I was old enough to realize what they were and what they wanted … till I went, Oh, my God. They were everywhere,” Feldman, 40, said.
The trauma of pedophilia contributed to the 2010 death of his closest friend and “The Lost Boys” co-star, Corey Haim, Feldman said.
“There’s one person to blame in the death of Corey Haim. And that person happens to be a Hollywood mogul. And that person needs to be exposed, but, unfortunately, I can’t be the one to do it,” Feldman said, adding that he, too, had been sexually abused by men in show business.
I strongly suggest reading this article too – it’s a short, disturbing read. The uninformed wonder why pedophilia is so common in the Catholic church, and now they can wonder about Hollywood too. But what do these two groups have in common? Power. Lots of it. If you enjoy abusing people, working in Hollywood behind the scenes is the way to go. You don’t have to work around the industry long to figure that out. If you don’t want to support abuse, working behind the scenes becomes difficult. If you don’t like being abused, working before the cameras becomes nearly impossible.
And into that environment, which has chewed up and spat out adults (mainly adult women), we throw children. The fashion industry is at least as bad. The creep factor is off the scale.
What the hell are we doing? Is our culture just really secretly okay with adults sexually abusing kids? Because people sure aren’t bothering to educate themselves. All the clues are there. You can learn most of it from TV shows these days. No schooling or reading of books (just magazines) is required. And yet, people still just don’t seem to give a damn. It’s inexcusable and unacceptable.
If you’re not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. Ignorance is no longer an excuse.
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Robin,
It’s Nick Stokes. I think they mention it in the first season sometime, or sometime in the first three seasons. And I dont think it’s ever mentioned again.
The Other Anne(Quote) (Reply)
Maria, what are your thoughts on this? I believe minority children are more likely than whites to be tried as adults, so I wouldn’t be stunned if some racists worked out a way to see a raped boy of color as the monster in the scenario you describe – at the very least, an unsympathetic victim who’s suspect of something somehow.
Interesting, because I’m not hearing a failure to take responsibility or any of the other straw men the commenters heard in this. Obviously, they are just assholes.
I wonder if an article on child molesting would be appropriate for this site. People don’t realize that it doesn’t have to include sexual assault – just an adult making a child inappropriately aware of her sexuality for the purposes of gratifying the adult’s sexuality is molestation – and that a big part of the damage occurs because kids are normally sorting out their own sexuality at their own pace. Having it suddenly defined by an adult (or another child with power) as something that *belongs* to the adult (or other child) and exists to serve his needs is awfully traumatic. Some kids internalize the whole message and think they are worthless and unloveable. Others just turn off their sexuality in order to preserve their self-esteem in other areas, and then they get to experience all the fun that goes with being asexual in a sex-obsessed society. ( It’s been suggested to me that this sentence might be misinterpreted as meaning that all asexuals are molestation victims. To this I say: learn to think, people. Don’t read an extreme position into every statement you read. That’s “pigeonholing”, and it’s really annoying.)
BTW, this isn’t meant to imply rape against one group is more wrong than rape against another group. It’s all evil and extremely traumatic. I’m just highlighting a particular issue that crops up when the victim is at a particular development stage in life.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Good point. I think that any organization where one group has a lot of power over another group is ripe for attracting the kind of people that would prey on children (or anyone they perceive as being vulnerable). In organized religious groups, many people put a lot of stock into what a pastor or priest says (I’ve been in churches before where people either have a problem but are too afraid to go to the pastor about it, or will do whatever the pastor says just because he says it). Claiming to be an authority on God, or whatever deity a particular religious group worships, gives one enormous power (I’ve read about some Celtic queens that did this to great effect) over practitioners of that religion. Plus, it’s really easy to feign being a good, pious person, while really being a monster. People are fantastic at hiding things.
Likewise, Hollywood is the defining voice on what someone needs to become in order to be valued by society. Those who find success in Hollywood are held up as examples for all of the rest of us to follow. It’s not a religion, but it so permeates our world that I wonder if it isn’t nearly as powerful.
Dani(Quote) (Reply)
Oh dear, somebody on DeviantArt made a joke saying I must have been sexually abused as a child due to my having a differing opinion than his. I told him that wasn’t cool and look what he sent me in a PM:
HOW DO I DEAL WITH THIS!?!?
Casey(Quote) (Reply)
Casey,
I just advise people like that, “Go kill yourself.” Those three words, no more, no less. They never seem to know what to do with that, since telling someone to commit suicide is really and truly cruel, but of course they can’t call me on it since they’ve just been saying something really and truly cruel to me and advising me to laugh about it. I’m not arguing this is a good approach – there may be some moral quandaries I haven’t considered. But I strike to win, and it’s pretty effective.
The whole thing of “accusing” people of having been raped is problematic in so many ways, I wouldn’t know where to start taking it apart. It attempts to isolate you as someone whose opinions on matters of sex and consent are biased to the point of useless on the basis of something that, in many cases, didn’t even actually happen; it implies that the only way anyone could be bothered by crudeness is if they have been rendered irrational by a rape experience; it implies that rape consistently leaves people devoid of rationality (despite his “all my friends were raped, and they think I’m funny!” schtick, it doesn’t make sense to suggest everyone who finds you un-funny must be a rape victim unless being raped consistently robs people of the sort of sense of humor that WOULD find you funny; it implies that everyone who hasn’t been raped would find him funny. I’m sure there’s more.
A few frustrated commenters have pulled that one on us here, and there is no quicker way to get yourself banned. I usually just don’t even bother with people who would pull that one. It’s just plain hateful.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Jennifer Kesler,
Thanks for the reply. I ended up writing a LONG, LABORIOUS dA journal about him explaining WHY he’s being an asshole and WHY he’s wrong but now he’s just mocking me. I also reported him for hate speech/bullying (not that the mods will do anything but at least I was pro-active).
He ended up writing a response journal that boils down to “I DON’T MIND IT IF SOMEBODY MAKES AWFUL, CRUEL JOKES ABOUT ME SO IF IT HAPPENS TO YOU SHUT UP”
The thing is, I’ve never really been able to find a good retort to the meme “To say certain things are taboo and hurtfull just give those things more power”, I feel like that should be 101-level info but I can never find a good way to explain why that argument is bullshit.
Casey(Quote) (Reply)
Casey,
Possibly the reason it’s hard to respond to is because it’s an irrelevancy in the first place. Because sure, it’s true that declaring something to be unacceptable gives it more impact, but SO WHAT? Unacceptable is unacceptable and how much “power” a thing has isn’t an issue except for someone who plans to continue doing/saying the unacceptable thing.
Dom Camus(Quote) (Reply)
Oh BTW, the only reason he “accused” me of having been raped was because of THIS ONE LITTLE EXCHANGE:
Me: I like [insert pro-wrestler here].
Him: You like [insert pro-wrestler here]? Were you dropped on your head or sexually abused as a child?
So yeah, not only did he think my opinion was SO WRONG that it must be because I was raped, but apparently my opinion is SO WRONG it must be because I have brain damage, BUT HEY CALM DOWN IT’S JUST A JOKE YOU TAKE THIS ALL TOO SERIOUSLY YOU’RE MAKING A FOOL OF YOURSELF!
Yay ableism. >_>
Casey(Quote) (Reply)
Casey,
I’d probably just say, “You are everything that is wrong with this world.”
And advise him to focus on improving his mediocre (at best) education.
sbg(Quote) (Reply)
What Don Camus said here. Also, anything you could say to offend someone like this would also be hurtful to others, i.e., “accusing” him of being gay. (Also, if he really wants to prove “anything goes”, then no matter what you say, he’ll just get away from the computer long enough to calm down and come back and write a response that laughs it off.)
This is why we eventually learned to just ban assholes, without discussion, without trying to make sure they don’t just need a little education. They have nothing of value to offer, so we kick them out. But, this is our space. That’s why we have it. DA is not your space, so you obviously can’t just ban him.
My advice: give him as little attention as possible, especially in a space you can’t control. He wrote a VERY long response to you, so clearly he wants to engage in this at length – don’t let him. Make it unrewarding. It’ll bother him more than you know. Basically, anything you say to this lump of meat is going to be used against you somehow, whether it makes sense or not (as demonstrated by his initial outburst). But if you don’t talk to him, when he so clearly wants to talk to you, he’ll be very frustrated.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Double commenting here, but this needs to be highlighted. This is basically the “curtailing my precious free speech!” argument, since taboos and censored things are similar concepts. So the counter-argument is: no one’s making anything taboo. No one’s censoring you. We’re just saying that only a worthless asshole who is just a drain on society would say something like what you just said, and therefore you are obviously a worthless asshole who’s dragging down civilization as we know it.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Casey,
***HUGS***
And what everyone else said.
Cinnabar(Quote) (Reply)
Cinnabar,
**HUGS BACK**
And thank all of y’all for the sympathy and helpful hints.
Casey(Quote) (Reply)
Now see, I’d make a “with great power comes great responsibility” type of response. I’d basically tell the dude that he devalues freedom of speech whenever he uses it as a club to bully others. After all, people are also free to cut in line at the coffee shop, or use insults instead of greetings whenever one meets their neighbor. Being free to do something does not automatically mean that doing it is right, or that there won’t be any consequences for it.
Azzy(Quote) (Reply)
Azzy,
Those are very good points! I’m not sure I think a dipshit like the one she’s dealing with will choose to “get” any of them, but they might play well to lurkers who are wondering if maybe what this guy is saying is actually acceptable.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Jennifer Kesler,
Considering how the dude in question is standing by the “I MAKE JOKES LIKE THIS AT MY FRIENDS’ EXPENSE ALL THE TIME WHAT’S THE BIG DEAL?” defense I doubt he’ll see the light. Most of my friends agree with me though.
I SEVERELY over-estimated his capacity for empathy and kind consideration when I first asked him, “Hey, lay off the child sexual abuse jokes okay?”
Casey(Quote) (Reply)
Casey,
TBH, I think he’s one of those people who think it’s cool to act like an asshole. In his mind, he probably thinks he’s a charming “telling it as it is” House-ian figure that everybody secretly admires and wants to be like.
He’s not. Feeling free to act like an asshole is not an admirable trait. It’s easy, and convenient, and the mark of someone who is either remarkably lazy or too stupid to understand the social contract. Being a decent person is HARD. Being a nice person, even harder. Being a good person? Ye gods, hardly anyone manages it, at least on a consistant basis. But someone who manages it, or at least tries, is leagues more admirable than some backwards guy who can’t be bothered.
I remember a documentary on evolution I saw once, where a scientist posited that one of the things that helped our evolution along was the fact that communication enabled the meek to band together and eliminate bullies from the group, thus ejecting the more violent and inconsiderate individuals from the gene pool. Whenever I meet one of these “proud to be an asshole” types, it’s hard for me not to think of them as an evolutionary throw-back, their assholish looking like some sort of social vestigial tail.
Azzy(Quote) (Reply)
Casey,
Cinnabar(Quote) (Reply)
Cinnabar,
Oh dear…I have a love/fear relationship with TUMBLR, I’ve favorited a lot of blogs on there (both feminist/social-justice-y things and fluffy fan-circles alike) but at the same time I’m scared to officially join since when I’ve lurked I’ve seen a lot of trolls/assholes who DIDN’T get dog-piled, plus the fact that there’s a Tumblr page called “SHUT THE FUCK UP, SOCIAL JUSTICE ASSHOLES” makes me reluctant (some of my friends who have Tumblrs are contemplating leaving due to unnecessary drama as well). There’s also the fact that I’m lazy and as of yet feel content with just a DeviantArt account.
I JUST REMEMBERED SOMETHING! Some of my Deviantart pictures were tagged on a Tumblr called “HORRIBLE WRESTLING FAN ART”.[/embarrassed]
Casey(Quote) (Reply)
Casey,
Ouch, that is mean! Yeah, it’s not really a “safe space” so you do get douchebags there, but it seems to attract more of the social justice crowd that anywhere else. You’ll never get rid of douchebaggery but you won’t be alone in your hatred of them.
Cinnabar(Quote) (Reply)
Huh. Because a lot of serial killers and rapists think that, too.
Roman Polanski talked that way as well – “I’m just doing what everybody wishes they had the nerve to do, but they don’t because they’re losers, and I’m a winner!”
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
I would follow that tumblr if it’s about assholes within the SJ community (of which there are plenty) and not about “mean social justice advocates who won’t let me use the words I want to use!!!!” And also, if I knew how to use tumblr.
Shaun(Quote) (Reply)
Casey,
Late to the party but if I may add one thing: The best way to finish off assholes like your very special “friend” here is 1st have the last word and 2nd block them before they block you. From my own experience it feels so good when you can tell those guys to GTFO and then block them. (It can be quite upsetting though if they got you first…) Anyway, I fear dA will also just tell you to block him and be done with it. :/
Jennifer Kesler,
I’m so tired of this “everyone secretly wants to murder/rape/steal/dootherhorriblethings” meme. There’s just so much wrong with it… D:
Sabrina(Quote) (Reply)
Unfortunately that’s exactly what it is, I found it when I was reading the Microaggressions tumblr (which is absolutely fascinating and makes me feel NOT alone in the world), a bunch of people take GREAT PLEASURE in trolling/harassing the SJ-centric Tumblrs and then they get in a big circle-jerk and brag about it.
Casey(Quote) (Reply)
Oh. Well, damn.
Casey: I found it when I was reading the Microaggressions tumblr (which is absolutely fascinating and makes me feel NOT alone in the world),
As an aside, do you feel like the Microaggressions blog is… lacking anything? I don’t know what microaggressions you personally experience, but the last time I looked I remember feeling like it challenged heterosexism but didn’t really do anything for monosexism.
Shaun(Quote) (Reply)
Casey, you follow Microaggressions?
I frequent the comments there. I totally second the feeling of not being alone in the world from that tumblr.
Finbarr Ryan(Quote) (Reply)
Shaun,
Oh jeez…hmm…my memory’s fuzzy, I can’t help but feel that I’ve only read entries about people who identified as bi/pan/omni-sexual with their jerk family/friends/etc. insisting they were gay (or straight)…IDK if that counts.
However, you just reminded me of an episode of Sex and the City I watched a little while ago that just pissed me off…it was one where Carrie was dating a 20-something-year old man who identified as bisexual and she (along with the other three friends) was all like “HURR PICK A SIDE AND GO WITH IT” or “ARE YOU STARING AT THAT GUY OR THAT GIRL HERP DERP”)…but I’d feel silly posting that as a micro-aggression.
Finbarr Ryan,
I don’t know if I follow it per se (since I don’t have a Tumblr account), but I do have it in my favorites folder.
Casey(Quote) (Reply)
Shaun,
If you click the “sexuality” tag, right now there are multiple from bisexuals on the first page, including one from the organizers of a Pride event (you can only be a positive role model for LGB teens if you’re L or G).
I do think microaggressions from gays/lesbians often ignore a multisexual perspective (acting as if there’s an either/or switch), but as long as it’s just implied and not outright stated I don’t blame the organizers of Microaggressions for that.
And yes, I love this tumblr too.
Sylvia Sybil(Quote) (Reply)
Casey,
Well, did you feel aggressed upon because of that episode? Then I’d say go for it. Not every microaggression has to be earthshattering, it’s the accumulation that counts. And personally I feel the “public” microaggressions from advertisements and TV shows help illustrate that this is a common, connected problem, not just a handful of jerks in individual people’s lives.
Sylvia Sybil(Quote) (Reply)
Sylvia Sybil,
Is it weird to feel aggressor upon when technically speaking the thing in question doesn’t affect you? I’m not so much bi as queer-ish (occasionally attracted to the same sex and transgender folks) but it irritated the fuck out of me ‘cuz what they were saying just seemed to be on a 101-level of ignorant.
I felt SUPER aggressed upon when I watched the episode when Miranda contemplated getting an abortion, I even wrote a DA blog post about it: http://dafeminist.deviantart.com/blog/40045487/
Be forewarned that there’s some derpy people in the comments section, apparently abortion isn’t a form of birth control.
Casey(Quote) (Reply)
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