Can you call yourself a feminist if you still think the man should pay entirely for every date between a man and a woman?
I never thought so. Equality means equal opportunity and equal responsibility. One argument against shared payment is that women still don’t have equal opportunity. We still aren’t earning quite as much as men. To this I say: then maybe we should stop dating more than we can afford to, until that changes. What better way to inspire men to back us on the importance of equal pay for equal work, than letting them ask out their girlfriends only to hear, “I’m sorry, I can’t afford another date until next payday”? [This suggestion is tongue-in-cheek. Edited for clarity.]
The most persuasive argument I’ve heard in favor of expecting men to pay for dates is: because women spend so much more money on getting ready. This is undeniably true, on average. Most of us remove hair from much of our body. We moisturize. We use conditioner. We wear makeup. We use products in our hair. Our clothes and shoes are generally more expensive, and we’re expected to own more of them. We’re expected to carry handbags. These expenditures add up, even for very frugal women.
Men like to whine that they don’t force these appearance standards on women, that women do it to themselves. This is bullshit. How many women do you know who keep their hair unconditioned, don’t moisturize and don’t shave, and still get dates? From men? While male heterosexuality is signaled by a cheap, efficient hygiene routine that leaves the man looking slightly better than when he rolled out of bed, the same routine in a woman is culturally coded to indicate we’re lesbians. No, if we don’t take the time to alter our appearance to something unnatural, that means we don’t like sex with men. The absurdity, it blows gaskets of the mind.
Anyway, what are your thoughts on who should pay for dates, and why?
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I would’ve insisted to pay my share too. I always offer(ed – haven’t dated in over a decade due to happy monogamous life
) to pay my share, but I’d yield if my date insisted too much, mostly because I’m a bit stingy :p (and in Argentina, where I come from, there are still men who feel it’s their duty to pay for the woman).
That’s for a single date, but if it blossomed into a relationship, I could not let my partner to invite me always. I guess that’s one of the things I liked of my husband, from the get go each of us paid his or her part.
Nuri(Quote) (Reply)
My suggestion was tongue-in-cheek, as evidenced by the laughable idea that turning men down for dates because we “can’t afford to go out” would actually result in them marching with us in protests about the wage gap. I have edited it to make it obvious it was a dry joke.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Jenn,
Anecdotal: at least two of my sisters have lots of dark hair on their arms. If either have considered removal, they haven’t actually done it. Neither have problems with attracting suitors.
I’m pretty sure Alyssa Milano has visible hair on her arms, bless her.
But, yeah, it’s become another place on the body hair is not acceptable for women. Pretty sure by now the only places hair is okay is the top of the head, and the eyebrows (but both should be maintained!).
Blarg. What does this have to do with paying for dates? Nothing. I go away now.
sbg(Quote) (Reply)
I know someone who is close to meeting the “beauty standard” when she roles out of bed, but still feels enormously pressured to put about 50 layers of product on her face every morning and night. No matter how many times the nice people at the beauty store assure her that she doesn’t need extra-strength concealer or foundation or whatever, she can’t quite convince herself. So it’s not just those who fall further from the norms, though obviously they will feel much worse pressure. Girly mags and celebrity gossip can take one hell of a beating on your ego, especially when you’re a teen and the guys around you *also* take their cues on this stuff from those sources. Yeah, that’s immature, but it gets inside your head…
Jaynie(Quote) (Reply)
Jaynie, I totally got that you weren’t playing that card, and you’re right. I’ve known a lot of women who worry WAY unnecessarily about their appearance. That’s how much pressure we’re under.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Hmm, maybe it’s a Southern thing, or maybe it’s that my arm hair was REALLY dark. But whatever the case, men asked me what caused it and why I didn’t do something about it. Except one man I worked with, an immigrant from South Africa – bless him, he actually really liked it! That was my introduction to the fact that much of the world thinks the US ideas about beauty are quite weird.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
This really sheds some light on all those guys at Male Rights forums kvetching about all the “bitches” who have dumped them for being too poor. I don’t remotely doubt some women do that – assholes happen in every gender – but I always wondered if it was as common as they think. Especially given that one often doesn’t know why one has been dumped.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
My leg hair is very pale and fine, so I’ve never felt a serious pressure to shave it and thus I haven’t.
Leg hair is not the only hair women feel pressure to get rid of, you’d be hard pressed to find a woman who doesn’t shave/wax her underarms and is totally comfortable with it in all situations.
My experience is that guys also have a hard time going out with women who don’t conform to hairiness standards because they cop a lot of flak from their friends.
I don’t shave my legs and I don’t get a hard time for it because, like you, I have light hair that really isn’t visible from more than 2 or 3 meters away (depending on how close you look). But my friends with dark leg-hair definitely can’t get away with it, unless they wear long pants all the time and that kinda defeats the purpose / totally sucks in an australian summer.
joss(Quote) (Reply)
I don’t know that I’ve ever dumped/refused to go out with a guy for being ‘too poor’. I can think of a couple I’ve refused to date because they were stupid with their money, and one I refused to date because he came by his finances dishonestly.
But come to think of it, my husband had been unemployed and I was the primary breadwinner at the time he and I got married. He was breadwinner when we got together, then I was breadwinner, now he is breadwinner, and when I finish my schooling I will go back to being breadwinner again.
GardenGoblin(Quote) (Reply)
That’s so true. This all evolved from a time when men were supposed to be demonstrating their ability to keep a woman financially, hence the paying. That’s not the cultural norm anymore – too few households can afford life on just one income. So it’s irrelevant to now, but it’s still with us. Why?
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
You’d be hard pressed to find a woman who doesn’t shave/wax her underarms and is totally comfortable with it in all situations.
Hi, that’s me! I’ve never shaved my underarms in my life, occasionally shave my legs in summer if they’re scraping on each other, and have never waxed anything. BUT I’m very pale and have light body hair – I don’t have to do anything to my eyebrows or minimal, invisible facial hair to fit in perfectly. This is a privilege that my Italian-Irish girlfriend (and pretty much any woman with visible facial hair and a job) doesn’t have.
lilacsigil(Quote) (Reply)
Australia really doesn’t have this kind of dating culture, or at least, not in my experience. In my current relationship I paid for half of our official first date before the guy could even say anything, because I didn’t want it to seem like I expected him to pay all the time. Now we generally alternate paying for our day-to-day activities, and if one of us suggests going somewhere special for dinner then they usually pay. There’s an occasional bit of negotiation because he has a little more disposable income than me, but he also has a car and drives me around a lot, while we usually stay at my place rather than his, so we’re bringing different things to the relationship.
Lucy(Quote) (Reply)
I must be an odd one out, or as above Aussie culture is that much different. I’ve always gone halves on my dates. Unless the guy really insisted, and that has been rarely.
Even now that we’re married, by husband and I still tend to both chip in. Or if one pays for dinner, the other gets desert/movie tickets ect.
I think we see it as a case of sharing home and income. we both work, so we both pay our share.
Makeup wise I also rarely use it. I’ve rarely ever used it and when I have its usually just a tiny smidge of eye shadow, liner and lip gloss. I hate pancake stuff on my face, it tends to make me break out after a few minutes.
I ocassionally shave my legs, mostly a summer thing since I have very dark hair on my lower legs, but I’ve never shaved armpits or arms and find the idea …odd.
I’ve never had people or guys say I need to wear more makeup or dress up more. Then again I also tend to hang around in more alternative social groups.
It boils down to anyone shallow enough to expect me to spend hours painting expensive crap on my face in order to “look pretty” isn’t someone I’m going to like enough anyway to be bothered to expend the said energy in the first place.
tori(Quote) (Reply)
See my response to Lucy above, another Aussie talking about how different it seems to be in your country compared to mine. Very interesting!
Also, I don’t believe armpit shaving is at all common anywhere outside the U.S. We had a discussion about it somewhere around here ages ago, and U.S. women told stories of people reacting with disgust at their unshorn armpits, as if they were unclean.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Hmm, there are two Aussies in a row saying it’s different there. Sounds like splitting the check is closer to a social norm there than the man paying? Is that what you’re telling me? This really interests me, because it’s a Big Deal Part Of Manly Manhood for American men to pay for dates. I’m not saying they all conform to this “standard” – many do not, of course. But it’s still very much considered a norm in the US.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
I live in a very rural part of Australia, and it’s *mostly* expected here that men pay for dates, but also that women wouldn’t ask a man out. At the same time, every is expected to pay their own way on group trips or casual dates where you just meet up somewhere. But we’re 30 years behind the times in most ways! I’d say about 75% of young women remove their armpit hair in summer (very few in winter), but very few older women do it, and it’s not a huge taboo to have a bit of hair in the armpit.
lilacsigil(Quote) (Reply)
Yes, this. That’s always sorta how I saw it too. The person doing the asking is essentially playing host/hostess.
jennygadget(Quote) (Reply)
Not that I have a lot of experience with dating, but my impression is that such guys are just nervous about coming across as completely rude by not insisting on paying. Which, maybe this is just me being weird or my inexperience, but I can’t see that lasting past the first few dates with any guy that I’m actually interested in. Or, rather, continued insistence that he pay every. time. (or even most times) would make me much less interested.
But yes, I agree, I think the “whoever does the picking” is a good rule too.
jennygadget(Quote) (Reply)
heh. you an me both.
jennygadget(Quote) (Reply)
I don’t have much ‘dating’ experience in the sense that most of my dates have envolved into relationships but my experience has been about 50-50 of men paying/going Dutch. I actually forget who paid with my current boyfriend, but we were really good friends first so it quickly settled into the same thing we’d always done – split the costs 50-50. (It’s actually EASIER to split the bill as a couple because we just pay half each, rather than working out who ordered what and paying for certain stuff.) But it doesn’t surprise me that there’s a stronger culture of going Dutch in Australia; enecdotally, we seem to have a more egalitarian attitude. Wouldn’t surprise me if it geos all the way back to not having as strong a religious right on account the US was founded on religious principles and Australia was founded on the backs of convicts who hated religion :p
scarlett(Quote) (Reply)
In Germany armpit shaving for women is definitely common.(Judging from seeing friends, and the naked women I see in the sauna/locker rooms). Shaving your arms is not very common, but I know a few people (women/gay men) who do it.
And I think more and more body hair is removed in general, by men as well, I was very surprsed that two men who had lots of back hair (which they did not remove) shaved their armpits.
On topic:
The dating culture here is completely different. Going dutch seems to be normal. Also, I got the impression from talking to an US friend who was disappointed that no one “treated her like a princess” that dates over here are way more low-key in general.
Jill(Quote) (Reply)
I like going dutch, but I have paid for dates where the woman I went out with was a poor student and I had a paying job. It seemed natural.
The Other Patrick(Quote) (Reply)
I agree entirely with Scarlett, I have never gone on dates with someone who wasn’t my boyfriend, and it has always been very even with who pays, either by going dutch or alternating.
I was visiting a conservative christian college in the US with my (then) boyfriend, we went to the cafeteria for lunch and I had cash so I paid. The guy taking our money (who knew us both) was like “whoa, shouldn’t it be the other way around?” whereas I didn’t even think of it being a problem.
I think here it really isn’t a big deal, so it is interesting reading your stories because I think if I were dating a guy who insisted on always paying I would be very wary about him as a person.
joss(Quote) (Reply)
Joss, sorry, I should have clarified: the men I have dated have mostly turned out to be my boyfriend. (Four first dates, three boyfriends.) So I haven’t, for lack of a better term, ‘casually dated’. But based on anecdotal stories from those who have, Australians seem to have a more go-Dutch approach to early dating.
Though I have several pleasant memories of friends, male and female, who, when I said I couldn’t afford x activity, sprung for me because they wanted my company. I think untimately it comes down to what feels right for the situation, tough unfortunately women often aren’t in a position to trust therit judgement
scarlett(Quote) (Reply)
I’ve pretty much only had female friends growing up, so I encountered a weird dynamic now that I’ve gained two guy friends. Granted, it turned out later one of them was interested romantically, but both of them constantly insist on paying for things when we’re hanging out together. It’s not a date… yet they still can’t seem to repress the instinct that man + woman + food = man paying.
Hailey(Quote) (Reply)
Well, that’s how *I* have always felt because I was raised with the idea that I should pay my way and be damn proud I CAN pay my way because my grandmother’s generation sure didn’t have education and job options like those available to women in our socioeconomic class now. But apparently this is just one more way I am far out of step with US culture, because many guys who fret about not paying are not (that I can tell, and I’m a good judge of character) trying to control women or overly invested in macho posturing. They just behave like paying is their responsibility and they’re worried about being irresponsible.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
And logical!
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
This brings up another confusing issue. Some guys I hang out with were complaining to me recently that “feminists” think men should pay for dates exclusively, and spend lots on them, ergo feminism sucks. I said, “I would agree, except those aren’t feminist women. There’s a whole right wing conservative movement of women calling themselves feminists but embracing values straight out of the 1950s. Judge them by their actions, not what they call themselves.”
This came about after Susan Faludi exposed the right-wing backlash against feminism for the pack of lies and official misogyny it was. The right wing started bringing in women to call themselves feminists (the legacy of this is: people thinking of Sarah Palin as a feminist rather than just a woman who benefited from feminism without ever espousing its values). This is where you get that screwball image of third wave feminism as being about the “empowerment” of getting breast augmentation and supplying men with blow jobs. Somewhere between the Spice Girls version of feminism and a 1950s housefrau emptily calling herself a feminist.
So here we all venture into the dating foray, with some of the men resentfully thinking feminists are the reason they *have to* pay for dates (yes, I’ve seen many men complain about this in forums), others wondering if it’s even acceptable to offer to pay, and some women thinking it’s all about how much he spends on her while others are looking for how he makes her feel. U.S. culture is such a morass of bullshit, I don’t know where to start.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Re: women’s hygiene routine standards for being considered heterosexually date-able:
Ironically there is a cosmetic products survey from BlogHer on the right of the blog right now. I filled it out to let them know how much I just don’t care.
meerkat(Quote) (Reply)
I second this. I remember from the time I used a dating service that there were heated debates about which way is better, mostly coming from men bewildered by completely different exeriences when they just followed “competent” advice in good faith, but general consensus was that the older generation is used to men paying for a date and the younger with a split check, so both is acceptable and one should go with what feels natural for both parties. For myself I would feel very uncomfortable without splitting like “does he think I can’t pull my weight”, esp. on a first date. All the things my fellow commenters said about their experiences in dating – fascinating and mind-boggling as it is, no offence, but these tactics of who pays what and when and is a date a date or is it an apple, it sounds perfectly complicated.
Elee(Quote) (Reply)
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