[ETA: follow-up here. Oh, those sillies.]
Reader The Other Patrick sent us this link: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=147426 [Ed. Note: which they have since locked so you have to join the forum to read it - 11-3-10] in which a female video gamer asks on a Starcraft2 forum if there are other female gamers interest in starting a women-only clan. The very first response is a male gamer demanding she post a picture of herself, and it goes downhill from there. Seriously.
The next response is a second demand for pictures. Eventually she says she doesn’t want to share pictures of herself, but will post a picture of her cat (and does). The next comment: “She just posted pics of her pussy! you happy now?”
Pretty much every single post is sexual harassment, until about the third or fourth page. She’s assured her community will be very small if she keeps the “vast majority” of the players out by not including men. Someone even pulls out the “What about the gayz” argument on the basis that gays aren’t allowed into “man-clans” so if the women-only clan doesn’t allow them, the poor gays will have to make their own clan. Turns out there are already gay-only clans.
Finally, a moderator tells the guys to stop trolling or they’ll be banned, but no comments are edited or anything. Someone handwrings about how folks would feel if anybody made a male-only clan, or whites-only, but it turns out there are quite a few male-only clans already – oh, the irony. Someone else questions the original poster’s actual gender, suspecting “she” is actually male.
Perhaps the most ironic comment in the thread is: “Good luck with your female only team. I remember there being a handful on west back in the day, but I don’t think any of them ever stuck around too long. Probably being too catty with one another.” YEAH, THAT WAS THE REASON. The entire thread answers a whole lot of questions about “girl gamer” behavior.
Then an administrator comes in and says: “Most girls on this site that are interested in competitive SC play with guys. DrH nailed it and i really dont see this going any where.”
Then someone suggests there should be a battle of male and female clans, and the response is: “When the girls lose the guys should say “rape”.
Anybody getting any meta-messages here? The response, including that from the administrator, is basically, “Sure, bitch, do what you want, but show us your tits and comply with all future sexual demands from all of us, and once you’ve done those chores you can do your little female only thing to your heart’s content in whatever spare time you have left, only we’ll be cyber-harassing all the other bitches, too, so they’ll probably be too busy to join your little club of whores.”
Then a woman comes in on the misogynist’s team: “There are sexists and perverts online and offline. Girls who don’t understand that already have no business being on the internet… If you ask me, she’s totally asking for it. Why would you even put a pic up there if you weren’t asking for someone to comment on the way you look?” By the way, it’s not a pic of the gamer herself, it’s a pic of someone the poster should recognize if she works at eSports, as she claims.
It becomes apparent through the thread that there’s a bit of context us non-gamers may have missed: when a woman posts something about being a woman, the first thing other posters need to establish is whether she is genuine or “an attention whore.” Quite a bit of post dissection is devoted to this investigation, because no one ever admits they just hate women. Misogynists always provide a Real Good Reason why they hate women, and in the case of gamers, that “reason” is that, they claim, most women who game court the attention of boys and men who pursue them for cyber-sex. The Real Good Reason is then supported by evidence that is interpreted anyway it must be interpreted to support the Real Good Reason.
Over and over, women are advised not to tell anyone they are female if they want to avoid harassment. It’s their job to avoid harassment, you see, certainly not, say, that administrator’s job to shut down harassment. No, the only post that gets a warning is this one: “The question is why she is not in the kitchen making me a sandwich ?”
There are actually a number of comments pointing out the misogyny in this thread, and doing it well. It’s also interesting to note that the female eSports misogynist gets picked apart and trashed almost as badly as the original poster.
This thread also brings up something you should know about: Blizzard, a major gaming forum, had plans to introduce RealID to its forums. So that posters would be easily identified by, I dunno, long lost friends and people who want to teach that whore a lesson up close and personal. If they’re thinking RealID would out the stalkers before their potential victims, they really need to talk to some law enforcement personnel. ETA: Blizzard reluctantly pulled these plans in the face of major public opposition, but never expressed the slightest concern about cyber-stalking or privacy in general.
Thoughts?
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To people coming from links via Reddit Gamers or the Team Liquid forum:
This is a website for discussion of gender inequality in the media. While TL obviously moderates comments with the goal of keeping the target audience of boyz happy and fuck everyone else, my target audience is people (of any description, and this site’s readership is 52% male) who think gender inequality sucks. That’s whose happiness I have in mind when I mod. You aren’t used to this. You are used to spaces where being a boyz means you are important and valued. That is not the case here. We have lots of male authors and visitors who are valued, but just being male isn’t good enough to get them a voice on this site. Nor is being female, for that matter.
If you want to speak on this site, you have to give a rat’s ass about gender inequality. If it’s obvious you’re not here either to discuss that or to learn more about it, why would I post your comments?
And btw, the sad old argument that I’m just deleting comments that don’t agree with me: silly assumption. If you read this site, you’d see tons of disagreement because we have sharp-minded, opinionated people here. The one thing I expect us all to have in common is an interest in improving gender inequality. If you don’t share that, then chances are your comments won’t get posted because they just won’t be of interest to my readership.
Welcome to your first experience of NOT being the all-hallowed target audience.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Hey now, I’m a female player and I play female characters partly because the “view” is better. Most games went out of their way to make the male posterior flat and uninteresting. Mind you, I’m also fond of races that have a tail or something back there to watch swish back and forth.
I don’t go on audio chat in most games unless I’m armored up against the world. Being openly female in an FPS game is a nightmare most of the time. I noticed today that LOTRO supposedly supports voice chat while you’re in a “fellowship”, I’m not looking forward to finding out how immature the community has become since the game went free to play. Of course, this is the same community that refuses to believe that thirty something year old housewives game, so I can’t win for trying at any rate.
Godless Heathen(Quote) (Reply)
I don’t play games, but my kids do (my son more than my daughter, but she goes online on the Xbox sometimes, too). I’ve listened in on conversations where one teenager threatens to rape the other players as they kill him, or track each other down. I’ve told my son to kick players like that out-and everytime when I hear a player in the games he’s in charge of use sexually threatening language.
My point is not that the boys are using this langauge against each other-it’s that they’re using it all. It doesn’t surprise me if kids who use threats like that against each other online on the Xbox [don't] grow up and play online computer games and keep doing it-only with convenient female targets after they’re more sexually aware and realize the full import of what they’re saying.
Gategrrl(Quote) (Reply)
Oh, so do I. I didn’t want to derail with the long comment about myself picking female characters both for my own identity and because, frankly, they’re much cuter to look at. >_>
I don’t like FPS games because I suck so badly at them, but their audience is so notably hostile towards a female voice that I wouldn’t be comfortable voice chatting in that environment, either, unless I was playing directly with people I knew.
Nonny(Quote) (Reply)
No. They didn’t. Well, that’s not totally inaccurate.
Blizzard had the problem explained to them, sure. But their response was more along the lines of “You gay/female bitches got uppity, so whatever, but we still think it’s a great idea.” They backed off, but it felt more like they backed off because it was unprofitable, not because they genuinely understood the problems they’d enable.
I’m a woman gamer, and this shit makes me angry nearly all the time. I’ve played MMOs for almost 13 years now. In EQ, I had to pretend to be male to get anywhere. I had some of my most formative years getting only exposed to women b’ bitchez in my largest outlet of spare time, and I was stupid for a long time because of it. In those 13 years, I’ve had 3 guilds where I felt being female was neither a detriment, nor an attention getter. It was just a fact. I had to more or less run 2 of them to get that, I think.
And, Rico?
This may merely be the lowest common denominator, but you’ve got to understand; Women tend to get no fucking support, at all. I don’t have one tiny iota of caring that ‘most guys’ don’t do this. This sort of shit gets repeated on general channels in games more or less every time women are mentioned (When there’s not cyber involved), and it’s extremely unlikely anyone starts pointing out where ANY of that is wrong. Now, in fairness, it can be difficult to oppose the tide of dumb, and some days, I am weary and do not want to explain to a bunch of overprivileged men and what I can only call the token misogynist woman (The ‘one of the guys’, not that it protects her at all from their misogyny, who reaffirms that all other women be bitchez, even if she’s not) everything wrong with everything they just said, but it still more or less never happens. In the last 5 years, which is when I started becoming aware of this (AS opposed to /being/ the token misogynist female) I’ve seen precisely one stranger comment on any sort of privilege, and it was white and middle class privileges (To which I proddingly added male for him).
There is an extremely good reason why women tend to avoid games. Some of it is not directly the responsibility of gamers, such as the male-centric plots, the male-centric female character designs, etc. But frankly, a lot of it is on gamers. Games and nerd hobbies are, as far as my personal experience goes, one of the biggest refuges of male privilege that still exists. It may be all pervasive, but it’s absolutely stifling when you try to play an mmo or pick up a DnD sourcebook.
Rutee(Quote) (Reply)
Oh, totally. And this one time on a blog I saw someone call a trans woman an “m2f transgendered person” instead of a trans woman, while pointing out said woman’s racism.
I get the totally correct point you’re making – that being oppressed doesn’t necessarily give insight into other oppression, but I always thought it was a bit dodgy to say oppressive things about people just because they say oppressive things, you know?
Lisa Harney(Quote) (Reply)
So this post is why I don’t get involved in most online game forums. I used to, frequently, because I loved the games. But doing so meant I had to choose between leaving a large part of myself outside of the game or dealing with the death of a thousand cuts from the casual, reflexive misogyny. I mean, what happened in that thread? I’ve dealt with dozens of times. This is so normal and accepted and it’s difficult to get anyone to accept it, and instead get loads of gaslighting and abuse just for daring to argue with it.
And I hate, absolutely hate the guys who go off about how women who say they’re women are seeking attention. And I hate being told over and over again that I shouldn’t say I’m a woman because doing so makes me a bad person. And I hate so much how misogyny is just about as omnipresent and invisible to the perpetrators as oxygen.
I still love games, and I love the communities I’ve found that decenter the cis het white temporarily able-bodied male perspective, because I don’t have to wear a psychological flak jacket just to participate.
And I know that makes me sound thin-skinned, but I’m not. It’s not how thick my skin is, it’s pure attrition. I spent enough time just reading this toxicity about women (as well as the homophobia, transphobia, ableism, etc) it got to me. I had to respond or I’d hate myself for not saying anything. But of course it’s draining to engage, and draining to not engage, and finally I had to admit it was time to disengage.
I am glad that just in the past year I have seen a lot of talk about this. I don’t know if there’s more than before, but it seems like it.
Lisa Harney(Quote) (Reply)
That’s totally awesome that you found a group like that, SarahSyna! I think one of the best (and funnest, frankly) ways to make gaming culture less sexist overall is to encourage new gamers with societies like the one you joined.
Revena(Quote) (Reply)
This is off-topic but is your avatar of Curryman?
Casey(Quote) (Reply)
Wow. Well, that put an angry end to my search for fellow female players of Starcraft 2.
PMS Clan doesn’t have SC2 . . . does anyone know of any place to find fellow female-ish (girl, woman, trans, etc.) players of SC2 without sexual harassment being par for the course? I think it would be really fun to make a team or something.
Sophia(Quote) (Reply)
It’s not how thick my skin is, it’s pure attrition.
This.
The Other Patrick(Quote) (Reply)
The above comment looks way snarkier than I wanted it to.
I just meant, mainly “trans woman” is often better than “m2f transgender person” and especially using “woman” because it’s such a pain to get a lot of people to accept trans women as women in the first place.
Lisa Harney(Quote) (Reply)
Sophia, you could try finding some players at The Iris Network: http://forums.theirisnetwork.org/
The forums are slow and sparsely populated of late, so I don’t know if you’d be able to find enough people to create a group, but if there’s a woman-friendly SC2 group that already exists, someone might know about it. It’s worth a shot!
Revena(Quote) (Reply)
I used to be big into MUDs, and the gender politics in some text-based games are amaaazing. Like, women’s studies dissertation-level weirdness. I pretty much always played female characters, and just creating a new (female) character and logging on could be enough to prompt an assortment of propositions ranging from “let me get you eq beautiful lady” to “I’m going to rape you to death” from complete strangers on public channels. What a way to greet a newb, huh?
Confirming that I was in fact a girl generally resulted in, you guessed it, continued harassment, with a side-order of creepy real-life overtures. The grossest part is probably that I was open about both my gender and my age – which, at the time I started playing MUDs, was 12. Not too young for explicit come-ons and threats, as it turns out!
Revena(Quote) (Reply)
Hey guys, I want to start a clan for people who like the colour red more than the colour blue. Oh, and here’s a picture of me. You silly blues ~~
Pedro Turnezez(Quote) (Reply)
I have experienced this as well, and this is also one of the reasons why I actually don’t like to reveal my gender a lot in internet communities. Once I was in a community dedicated to metal music, and there was a thread about dicks! And I happily participated and no one suspected a thing.
However, I have also received more appreciation for being a female and for being skilled of what I am doing, because well, it does take a lot more to do what you do as a female because of said inherent misogynism. Not that it’s fair towards the men, but it does mean a lot more socially if a woman can achieve something great not all men would do, either.
I for example used to lead raids for some time, and I remember one guy who said “female leader <3" in the raid chat (we spoke on Vent). When I am leading, I am incredibly rigid and demanding. I am not leading like I think most would suspect a woman would lead, anyway. I'm more like a general of an army! "Don't you dare walk a centimeter without me telling you to!"-kind of deal.
However, I do want to bring up that men are constantly misogynist towards each other as well. He's gay, a faggot, a pussy, a cunt etc, are all typical responses towards a man from another man. I've even written a thesis about that, and I just feel this is important to highlight so women don't just appear as martyrs, since this is clearly not the case. However, gaming men ARE the hegemonic group, and I don't think this is as infuriating to a man than a woman, because a man will still always have it easier to become accepted into another gaming community than a woman. While I am not saying that a man called faggot is not feeling hurt, I certainly believe they feel hurt (and unfortunately display it with even more unnecessary harrassment in turn, since men are usually taught to deal with their emotions with anger), it's always going to be easier for them to move on and become accepted elsewhere.
I had this funny instance playing a custom map in SC2 once, which is created to be DoTA-like, at which point I failed to kill one of the enemy players who was low on health because I didn't notice and I was killing creep for minerals so I could buy that final upgrade. The response I got from one of the other plays was that I suck for not killing the enemy player, which ultimately ended up with him calling me gay (he even presumed that I was a man), despite that I use the name Lea, which is a female name in some countries. I didn't really feel like arguing more at that point because it had that point already been established how juvenile he was so I just responded with "you too" (I know, I shouldn't lower myself like that, but I sincerely believe that if someone fail to respect me, then I have no reason to respect them), at which point he actually felt he had to defend his heterosexuality by saying that he's girlfriend is watching him playing! And then added that gay doesn't mean "homo" and that I'm a girl, and then I pointed out that it actually means "funny" and some other person on my team said "happy" or similar.
Unfortunately I didn't think of the smirky comment I came up with later, where I should just have pointed out that if gay doesn't mean homo, then why was he so quick to point out he had a girlfriend? Pretty sure that would've shut him up big time.
I'm in a good guild in WoW now though, all of the players are pretty old and the atmosphere is mature even though some of us can be asshats from time to time (and who aren't?), and I'm certainly not feeling discriminated due to my sex. I do feel I gain some additional respect from the men, since I at least used to be one of the best performing players in the guild and when I came back from taking a break, some of them were happy I was back because they felt they lost a great assett when I was gone. So of course, it's also about finding the right people, but with a game like SC2 it can be very hard because it's much more hardcore than WoW. I also noticed a huge decline in harrassment after I switched from a PvP server to an RPPVP server.
It doesn't make it go away, I notice a lot of sexual harassment towards women in particular in trade chat (not necessarily kitchen jokes, but you can probably all imagine what I am talking about where women are completely reduced to sex objects), but it's not directly directed at me, at least.
The problem however, is that these kind of things reveal that patriarchy is very much alive and well even though we sometimes might not want to think so. I'd like to see comments like the ones said on the internet as true intentions. This is what people actually feel, and they can feel this way solely since they are anonymous. Even if a lot of these people would not be sexist in real life, it doesn't matter, because the way they behave on the internet shows how they truly think about these issues and feel they are free to express them. What I am trying to say is that there is certainly a correlation between how you behave in real life and how you behave on the internet, regardless if you are making up a persona or not. It still says something about you. If you feel you need to hide who you are on the internet, it says a lot. If you feel you need to hide who you are in real life it says a lot too.
I would like to conduct an anthropological study about identity in the future about this particular issue, because I don't think that much has been done around the subject.
Anyway, just some mindblurbs from me as a moderately hardcore female SC2 gamer who plays at platinum level and has done most of the end game content in WoW in this expansion.
Lea(Quote) (Reply)
Well gosh, Pedro’s comment sure made me see the error of my ways. Why, people who like the color red face real discrimination every day. They face cyberstalking if they reveal their identities in online games. They are /constantly/ belittled by society at large. Every person who wears red has to work twice as hard just to prove they’re not a waste. They are constantly reminded of their social inferiority through the media. Their pictures are used as proof of how they’re either attention whores, or ugly and not worth talking to. I sure feel dumb now.
Rutee(Quote) (Reply)
careful, the Stones were real red-haters: »I see the red door and I want to paint it black…”
The Other Patrick(Quote) (Reply)
On the flip side (‘cuz I’m trying to be an optimist here), this also serves as a good analogy of how inherently ridiculous sexism/misogyny/etc is. Why would anyone want to marginalize over half the human population over something so trivial?
Casey(Quote) (Reply)
And to think, before Starcraft 2 came out Team Liquid used to be such a nice place…
More seriously, it is a real shame how female gamers get treated (speaking broadly). I’ve had the good fortune of playing with many female gamers over the years, from a middle-aged chicken farming teacher who wanted to learn Starcraft (she was a hoot, let me tell you ^^), to your more usual slightly-nerdy 18-to-24s who just wanted to play and be left alone. Anyone who “sounded” typically attractive (whatever that means) inevitably had to deal with everything from awkward flirtation, to accusations of being bad players (obviously due to their inherent gender handicap…) who traded virtual sex acts for access to “real [clans/guilds/friends]” – that is, of course, groups of males who are “actually good” at the game (due to being males, of course).
Anyway, nice writeup, and I’ll be making sure to check back and visit the site in the future. Seems like a nice place!
BriseBonBons(Quote) (Reply)
I’ve pretty much totally given up on online gaming, in large part, due to bullshit like this. And I’m a -guy-.
I want to be part of a community where everyone is equally welcome, if anything, members of under-represented parts of the demographic are MORE than welcome, because more diversity tends to make the social part of any game more fun. (If I don’t want social, I’ll play single-player, thankyouverymuch)
There’s decent exceptions, but they’re hidden gems. My guild on the one mud I still bother playing, is around 40/60 female-male, and is lead by a grandmother. It’s hell of a lot of fun. But you’de be run out of town in tar and feathers inside of the first hour, if you posted bullshit like 75% of the posts in the thread this article discusses.
Allowing idiot behaviour like this, doesn’t just scare away half the market. It pushes away that part of the male population which finds it distasteful too.
Eivind(Quote) (Reply)
Being female, and having been interested in computer games since about age 16 or so, I’ve found the strategy which works for online gaming is to pretend I’m an NPC. I don’t interact with other players, I don’t get into the big raids, or join guilds, and I don’t get involved with chat or forums. I just do my thing and stay clear of everyone else. Effectively, I play a social game as a single-player game.
Yes, I know I’m missing out on a lot of the fun. But I also know I’m missing out on most of the crap, too. But then, I’ve always been more interested in the story than the socialisation anyway. I like finding all the different plot threads in a story, seeing what makes it real. This is a big part of why I’m a preferential RPGer – I like the whole “storytelling” side of things. But I’ll also admit I prefer playing the single-person console RPGs over playing any of the MMOs I’ve tried, because at least with those I know I don’t have to effectively cut my gaming experience in half (by avoiding all the multi-person content) in order to just get through things.
Meg Thornton(Quote) (Reply)
Ooooh dont get me started.
I started a thread up on the WoW Forums on an alt, after my, normally fine guild just pissed me off a bit. I asked if there where any LGBT and female friendly guilds on the server since I generally equate these to being more tolerant and less fucking mindlessly misogynistic than what guild chat can sometimes devolve into.
You should have seen the shit fest that brought down.
Patronised, ridiculed, told no girls play wow ect… Then I got into a long argument about how there is no sexism on WoW, how asking for a LGBT or female friendly guild was not “integrating” these people and would leave them open to harrassment. the subtext being that if they had their own guild they deserved harrassment.
I think the primary fuckwit was American since he had a rock solid belief that “Integration” not “Segregation” was the thing to do. That “segregating” ourselves would be bad and lead to all kinds of “justly deserved” badness.
Also the argument that since WoW had players of all races, genders and religions it couldn’t be sexist, racist ect…
A definition which as far as I’m concerned simply can be applied to say that pre Apartheid South Africa was a tolerant society since all genders and races were represented.
And to top it all off, since no one actually could get me banned since I wasn’t trolling, they reported it for offensive comments until the entire thread was simply Vanished.
I now have a special place in my heart for the kind of gutless, cowardly festering parasites which infest so much of my favourite game.
I sent off a email querying this to blizzard and still haven’t heard from them. Racism they can sidestep by saying there is “no issue” in a fantasy world. But sexism, they wish it away any harder and someone’s going to pop a aneurysm.
inakha(Quote) (Reply)
“And I know that makes me sound thin-skinned, but I’m not. It’s not how thick my skin is, it’s pure attrition. I spent enough time just reading this toxicity about women (as well as the homophobia, transphobia, ableism, etc) it got to me. I had to respond or I’d hate myself for not saying anything. But of course it’s draining to engage, and draining to not engage, and finally I had to admit it was time to disengage.”
This. So This! I finally had to admit to myself it was no use being even the lazy feminist that I was when I play WoW. I simply isn’t worth the blood pressure, rage and screaming headaches. I just have to accept that I need to turn that part of my brain off when I’m online.
inakha(Quote) (Reply)
Huh, how do you turn that part of the brain off? I don’t seem to be able to do this.
See, I used to be able to but the constant endless cuts actually made it a lot harder to not think about it.
Lisa Harney(Quote) (Reply)
Ugh, here’s where I bare my shame. Because I used to be one of those feckless, thoughtless tomboys who didn’t know any better and thought all the PC talk was getting damn feminism in my damn game.
That being said it was the constant misogyny of gamer males which has set my latent lazy feminist sensibilities into overdrive.
Simply put tho I just try not to think about it. If I do respond to something, its in that “If you wanna talk about hot girls, then I’m gonna talk about hot guys.”"She’s got great tits? But have you seen the Arse on that boy?” ect ect blah blah.
Essentially I will play by their rules until they choke.
That and I’ve gotten alot faster at hitting the ignore button.
inakha(Quote) (Reply)
“Then why not stay in disguise all the time? You know, look like everyone else?”
“Because we shouldn’t have to.”
Patrick McGraw(Quote) (Reply)
I guess I am lucky, as a female gamer I have only experienced sexist crap on a personal level very rarely. But reading that SC2 thread made my blood boil. What does what set of genitals you have have to do with your gaming ability? I have met plenty of female gamers who were great, and on the other side of things, plenty of male gamers who suck.
On my WoW server I get to see “Get back in the kitchen” trolling in trade chat most days. And whilst I tell myself it’s mostly just idiots trying to get a rise out of people and they might not really mean it, it’s still annoying. Yet there is nothing can be done about it. If they suggested “Black people should go back to the plantation” they would be punished, but suggest a women go back to the kitchen? Nah, that’s fine…
A few years back I was Horde raiding guild, and had no problem using vent and talking. Til one of the officers decided female member = someone to talk dirty to them on vent. I couldn’t believe it. He acted like it was a normal thing for girls playing games. I left pretty damn quickly. I stop talking on vent after that, until I join my current guild which has a healthy number of female members and very nice men who accept anyone can play the game.
But one thing that does make my blood boil are those few girls that DO use their gender to get things in game. I had one in a guild once (and her character name WAS Princess, how about that), and she drove the other female members nuts with her “I’m just a silly girl, pwease come help me you big hunky man” crap she used to pull. We all cheered when she was finally kicked after causing such drama involving at least 3 male guildies, leading to one to quit the game completely. Not only is it selfish acting that way, but it does NOTHING to help female gamers gain acceptance. After all, people don’t seem to remember girls who just get on with the game and play well, but girls like Princess seem to stick in their minds. *sigh*
Moraith(Quote) (Reply)
You know… given how many male gamers seem to think “girls” have it so easy, and how many women let people think they’re men to avoid the crap, I’ve started wondering how often the “attention whore” female gamers are actually men pretending to be women and girls. What do you think of that possibility? I’m not a gamer so I wouldn’t know – it just struck me as an obvious possibility.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
From comic book stores and game stores I have seen two basic reactions to women showing up: condescension and fawning attention. I find it hard to criticize women for going the fawning attention path.
The Other Patrick(Quote) (Reply)
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