[ETA: follow-up here. Oh, those sillies.]
Reader The Other Patrick sent us this link: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=147426 [Ed. Note: which they have since locked so you have to join the forum to read it - 11-3-10] in which a female video gamer asks on a Starcraft2 forum if there are other female gamers interest in starting a women-only clan. The very first response is a male gamer demanding she post a picture of herself, and it goes downhill from there. Seriously.
The next response is a second demand for pictures. Eventually she says she doesn’t want to share pictures of herself, but will post a picture of her cat (and does). The next comment: “She just posted pics of her pussy! you happy now?”
Pretty much every single post is sexual harassment, until about the third or fourth page. She’s assured her community will be very small if she keeps the “vast majority” of the players out by not including men. Someone even pulls out the “What about the gayz” argument on the basis that gays aren’t allowed into “man-clans” so if the women-only clan doesn’t allow them, the poor gays will have to make their own clan. Turns out there are already gay-only clans.
Finally, a moderator tells the guys to stop trolling or they’ll be banned, but no comments are edited or anything. Someone handwrings about how folks would feel if anybody made a male-only clan, or whites-only, but it turns out there are quite a few male-only clans already – oh, the irony. Someone else questions the original poster’s actual gender, suspecting “she” is actually male.
Perhaps the most ironic comment in the thread is: “Good luck with your female only team. I remember there being a handful on west back in the day, but I don’t think any of them ever stuck around too long. Probably being too catty with one another.” YEAH, THAT WAS THE REASON. The entire thread answers a whole lot of questions about “girl gamer” behavior.
Then an administrator comes in and says: “Most girls on this site that are interested in competitive SC play with guys. DrH nailed it and i really dont see this going any where.”
Then someone suggests there should be a battle of male and female clans, and the response is: “When the girls lose the guys should say “rape”.
Anybody getting any meta-messages here? The response, including that from the administrator, is basically, “Sure, bitch, do what you want, but show us your tits and comply with all future sexual demands from all of us, and once you’ve done those chores you can do your little female only thing to your heart’s content in whatever spare time you have left, only we’ll be cyber-harassing all the other bitches, too, so they’ll probably be too busy to join your little club of whores.”
Then a woman comes in on the misogynist’s team: “There are sexists and perverts online and offline. Girls who don’t understand that already have no business being on the internet… If you ask me, she’s totally asking for it. Why would you even put a pic up there if you weren’t asking for someone to comment on the way you look?” By the way, it’s not a pic of the gamer herself, it’s a pic of someone the poster should recognize if she works at eSports, as she claims.
It becomes apparent through the thread that there’s a bit of context us non-gamers may have missed: when a woman posts something about being a woman, the first thing other posters need to establish is whether she is genuine or “an attention whore.” Quite a bit of post dissection is devoted to this investigation, because no one ever admits they just hate women. Misogynists always provide a Real Good Reason why they hate women, and in the case of gamers, that “reason” is that, they claim, most women who game court the attention of boys and men who pursue them for cyber-sex. The Real Good Reason is then supported by evidence that is interpreted anyway it must be interpreted to support the Real Good Reason.
Over and over, women are advised not to tell anyone they are female if they want to avoid harassment. It’s their job to avoid harassment, you see, certainly not, say, that administrator’s job to shut down harassment. No, the only post that gets a warning is this one: “The question is why she is not in the kitchen making me a sandwich ?”
There are actually a number of comments pointing out the misogyny in this thread, and doing it well. It’s also interesting to note that the female eSports misogynist gets picked apart and trashed almost as badly as the original poster.
This thread also brings up something you should know about: Blizzard, a major gaming forum, had plans to introduce RealID to its forums. So that posters would be easily identified by, I dunno, long lost friends and people who want to teach that whore a lesson up close and personal. If they’re thinking RealID would out the stalkers before their potential victims, they really need to talk to some law enforcement personnel. ETA: Blizzard reluctantly pulled these plans in the face of major public opposition, but never expressed the slightest concern about cyber-stalking or privacy in general.
Thoughts?
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I don’t really care about women who “use their gender to get things in game.” I mean, that wouldn’t even work if guys weren’t being sexist in the first place, right? And I know men who have gamed this attitude, who pretend to be women in-game to get this attention and free stuff, exploiting a sexist attitude about women that men hold that says “if I’m nice enough to a woman, I might be able to get some sex.” So, they don’t make my blood boil at all.
Lisa Harney(Quote) (Reply)
Yes, the ignore button is so valuable. I can’t believe how many times I’ve used it on some forums before I gave up on them entirely.
I do try not to think about it, and in general it kinda works. I deal with it in WoW by being in a guild which has a lot of women (friends, not LGBT or specifically for women) as members. And with friends I take advantage of that ‘benefit of the doubt’ tendency.
But a lot of crap just like drives me up the wall no matter what.
And, oh, don’t feel ashamed. I mean, it’s not like men are raised hearing sexist ideas and women are not, everyone gets them.
So many people participate in misogyny that it’s like, this doesn’t really make you a worse person for it, you know?
Lisa Harney(Quote) (Reply)
There ARE guilds in WoW that are safe spaces. And turning off Trade and General Chat also helps a lot. That’s how I’ve managed to get by, at least.
Pai(Quote) (Reply)
I haven’t seen much of anything come up in trade or general chat, but that may just be the server I play on, which is a “Roleplay PvE” server – the direct opposite of the servers where you are most likely to find arrogant gasbags. Most of my characters are female.
But again, this is a single person’s experience on a single server. I also mostly solo, so I haven’t seen much in terms of group dynamics, which seems to be where a lot of the sexist assholes spew their crap.
Patrick McGraw(Quote) (Reply)
I was in a pug the other week (through the random dungeon finder thing) and 2 of the people in it called one of the other group members on their homophobic language. Made me pretty happy
Lauren B(Quote) (Reply)
Oh, Dragon Age 2 *does* have a gender selector? I’d honestly got the impression from previews that it was just that guy. o.0
It’s similar in the Mass Effect series… Which is doubly disappointing for that particular game, because the voice acting is noticeably better for the feminine Shepard.
Nentuaby(Quote) (Reply)
I can tell you exactly what would happen if you did that… You would get a massive shitstorm of homophobia tossed back in your face.
Nentuaby(Quote) (Reply)
RE: DA2 marketing, we had a discussion on that same thread over at Iris Network! Check it out, there were some really brilliant points:
http://forums.theirisnetwork.org/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1971
Cinnabar(Quote) (Reply)
Yea, I encountered the exact same thing on Blizzard’s official Starcraft 2 forum; I was posting on behalf of an ex-girlfriend, trying to find her female practice partners, and the story reads exactly like yours.
And yes, the official Blizzard moderators are just as bad.
Steve(Quote) (Reply)
JessAmanda.175
She’s Bronze #17
Steve(Quote) (Reply)
I have a few questions.
1) Gender exclusive clans. Aren’t feminists the ones complaining about this the most? I.e. women not being welcome. Seems to me to be somewhat of a double standard to first complain about women not being included, and then advocating the founding of female only clans.
2) Gaming is a hobby. Hobbies are subject to a lot less rules about equal access than the public enviroment. It is every person’s right to decide what people that person wants to spend time with. There are no anti-disciminiation law regulation equal access to other people’s hobbies. So what is really the problem? If you don’t like the jargon, don’t play there.
Hmmm(Quote) (Reply)
OH BOI UR GONNA GET BANNED
Casey(Quote) (Reply)
Aren’t feminists the ones complaining about this the most?
Nope. You obviously know nothing about feminists, but keep right on showing your ignorance. It’s good for a laugh.
Hobbies are subject to a lot less rules about equal access than the public enviroment.
Hobbies are also subject to what the audience wants from them. Quite a few members of that audience are speaking up for what they want.
Dude, do you not see the irony? You’re here complaining about what you don’t like on this site. They’re over there complaining about what they don’t like on that site. No difference, except you think you’re an exception to the rules.
There are no anti-disciminiation law regulation equal access to other people’s hobbies. So what is really the problem? If you don’t like the jargon, don’t play there.
Where else are women supposed to play? Sure, you’d love it if they went off to some tiny little women-only site. That’s what you want. But it’s not what they want. They want to play at that site; they have every right to play at that site; and you’re coming off as a pitiful throw-back to the 1950s. How afraid of women are you?
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Thanks for laying the Smaketh Down~!
Casey(Quote) (Reply)
*smack
UGH, I guess misogynist apologist trolls make me spell bad.
Casey(Quote) (Reply)
“Nope. You obviously know nothing about feminists, but keep right on showing your ignorance. It’s good for a laugh.”
I could show you a lot of feminist gamers complaining about ‘othering’ and ‘exclusion’ and ‘homosociality’.
‘Hobbies are also subject to what the audience wants from them. Quite a few members of that audience are speaking up for what they want.’
Yes, and if they are in the majority they will drive away the people that don’t want to play that way.
‘Dude, do you not see the irony? You’re here complaining about what you don’t like on this site.’
I am venting my opinion, they are venting theirs.
‘Where else are women supposed to play? Sure, you’d love it if they went off to some tiny little women-only site. ‘
That’s what you want. But it’s not what they want.’
When it comes to feminists, I would prefer if they stopped throwing accusations of entitlement at men, while they themselves are never entitled and only claim their human rights.
‘They want to play at that site; they have every right to play at that site;’
Can you show me any kind of reference to this in writing? Preferably something with any kind of juridical buoyancy. The word ‘entitlement’ springs to mind quite easily.
‘and you’re coming off as a pitiful throw-back to the 1950s. How afraid of women are you?’
Afraid? Not really. Tired of hearing about ‘entitlement’ and ‘privileged’ all the time, Yes.
Hmmm(Quote) (Reply)
“No difference, except you think you’re an exception to the rules.”
But he is a man! And he is ‘splaining!
Patrick McGraw(Quote) (Reply)
No, you’d just show me people you ASSUME to be feminist because they have vaginas and aren’t thrilled with the status quo. People like you fail to make that distinction quite frequently.
Mmm, but your opinion is that they haven’t the right to one. Again, your failure to see the irony is pretty funny. Also, entitled and privileged!
I’m assuming you left out some words but meant that feminists are entitled but claiming they only want basic rights (why, yes, I have heard it all before)? That’s what privileged, entitled, pampered people usually think when the oppressed classes get “uppity” and ask for equal rights. You… lack intellectual rigor, to say the least.
Oh, I see – you’re not using your brain for this discussion at all. Okay, I’ll type slowly. It is a site which allows women to sign up, therefore they have the right to be there. I hope this is clear enough for you. “Right” is not a concept exclusive to the legal domain.
But you are entitled and privileged. It drips out of nearly every sentence you say, but you don’t see it. So it’s like this: if you have a tiny little dick, and you’re all the time exposing it to people who don’t want to see it, they’re probably going to comment on what a tiny little dick you have. If you’re sick of hearing about it, stop exposing it.
Well, this was almost amusing, but I’m bored now.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Why does that make me think, “Lucy, you got some ‘splaining to do!”
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Maybe you should listen to what Lisa Harney says as well. Why do women keep associating with men that behave in this way, and then complain. Instead of just leaving?
Hmmmm(Quote) (Reply)
It’s okay to have a male only group. Really, it’s fine. My husband has a ‘boy’s night’ where he and his male friends play poker, drink beer, and give each other hell.
The difference between those mature, adult men and you is:
They are okay if we girls get together and have a female group that does the same thing. The fact that females can actually figure out the rules of Texas Hold’em and play just as well, and in a few cases better, doesn’t give our husbands self-esteem issues. We’ll even all get together for tournament style games and all manage to have fun together.
GardenGoblin(Quote) (Reply)
Ok, I wish you all the best.
I have no problem with women grouping together and doing things they enjoy together. What I have a problem with is first hearing how it is a right for women to exclude men arbitrarily, while at the same time hearing that it is wrong for men to group together and exclude women arbitrarily, and if a man complains over the first occurrence, then he is entitled. If a woman complains over the second, she is only claiming her right. And this seems to apply equally to hobby and work.
Hmmmm(Quote) (Reply)
Ooooooh, BURN.
It’s cute when the privileged and entitled get worried that they may lose their privilege and entitlement. When they do, it’s like they become little octopi or squid, squirting out ink in the form of poorly written, heavily cliche and (unsurprisingly) unoriginal “arguments” against whoever is trying to gain equality.
Oh wait, cute is the wrong word.
The Other Anne(Quote) (Reply)
ZOMG it’s Privilege Denying Dude! XD
Cinnabar(Quote) (Reply)
This is a strawman argument. No one here said that. You know who said that? TEAM LIQUID FORUM MEMBERS. They had a problem with a woman only clan. And here’s the irony: online gaming in general has created an atmosphere hostile to women, in which anyone claiming to be female is subjected to a campaign of sexual harassment. THE ENTIRE CULTURE OF GAMING IS DE FACTO “MALES ONLY” but they flip out when a woman wants to start a small female-only clan just for fun.
And you still don’t get it.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Because the moon isn’t habitable yet
Maartje(Quote) (Reply)
See, this is why so many comments from you people got deleted originally, and the only reason I’m letting yours through is for demonstration purposes.
When most men in a certain setting act like assholes, your logic says women must never participate in that setting, or else we are “asking for it”. Similar arguments were made (and continue to be made) about women in the workplace (if they don’t like being sexually harassed/looking at male co-worker’s Playboy pinups on the wall, they shouldn’t have careers) twenty years ago. Similar arguments exist about rape – we shouldn’t go to bars unless we “want” to be raped, since everyone knows bars are places where rapists go looking for victims.
This is such a privileged asshole position – can you not see that? What if women were dominant in gaming, and you wanted to game, but every time you did, the women made you feel the way bullies do, assuming you’ve ever been bullied? Frightened, angry, uncertain you can stand up for yourself without making it worse, etc. Would you say, “Ah, well, it’s my own damn fault for gaming. I should fuck off and go learn to love fanfiction.”
I didn’t think so. No, the world is yours for the enjoying because You Are A Man. You think it’s a natural state that women should be punished for joining any part of the gaming community, but you’re flipping out about women wanting to do their own thing in a small niche of a small part of the overall gaming community.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
You know why TL is a male-only (almost) atmosphere? Because if you link to an interview where for one second, a woman passes by in the background, one of the first posters will say, “attractive woman at 1:19″. Because if there’s a woman trying to compete in the league, she will be followed by camera with comments like, “OMG filming the girl felt totally stalkerish. I watched the while thing” or “OMG there’s a girl there!”
And so on…
The Other Patrick(Quote) (Reply)
You know they’d only follow us there, crying about how it’s unfair they’re not allowed in :/
Raeka(Quote) (Reply)
That was pretty well demonstrated by the reaction to an easy-going question about starting a clan for women, wasn’t it?
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
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