[ETA: follow-up here. Oh, those sillies.]
Reader The Other Patrick sent us this link: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=147426 [Ed. Note: which they have since locked so you have to join the forum to read it - 11-3-10] in which a female video gamer asks on a Starcraft2 forum if there are other female gamers interest in starting a women-only clan. The very first response is a male gamer demanding she post a picture of herself, and it goes downhill from there. Seriously.
The next response is a second demand for pictures. Eventually she says she doesn’t want to share pictures of herself, but will post a picture of her cat (and does). The next comment: “She just posted pics of her pussy! you happy now?”
Pretty much every single post is sexual harassment, until about the third or fourth page. She’s assured her community will be very small if she keeps the “vast majority” of the players out by not including men. Someone even pulls out the “What about the gayz” argument on the basis that gays aren’t allowed into “man-clans” so if the women-only clan doesn’t allow them, the poor gays will have to make their own clan. Turns out there are already gay-only clans.
Finally, a moderator tells the guys to stop trolling or they’ll be banned, but no comments are edited or anything. Someone handwrings about how folks would feel if anybody made a male-only clan, or whites-only, but it turns out there are quite a few male-only clans already – oh, the irony. Someone else questions the original poster’s actual gender, suspecting “she” is actually male.
Perhaps the most ironic comment in the thread is: “Good luck with your female only team. I remember there being a handful on west back in the day, but I don’t think any of them ever stuck around too long. Probably being too catty with one another.” YEAH, THAT WAS THE REASON. The entire thread answers a whole lot of questions about “girl gamer” behavior.
Then an administrator comes in and says: “Most girls on this site that are interested in competitive SC play with guys. DrH nailed it and i really dont see this going any where.”
Then someone suggests there should be a battle of male and female clans, and the response is: “When the girls lose the guys should say “rape”.
Anybody getting any meta-messages here? The response, including that from the administrator, is basically, “Sure, bitch, do what you want, but show us your tits and comply with all future sexual demands from all of us, and once you’ve done those chores you can do your little female only thing to your heart’s content in whatever spare time you have left, only we’ll be cyber-harassing all the other bitches, too, so they’ll probably be too busy to join your little club of whores.”
Then a woman comes in on the misogynist’s team: “There are sexists and perverts online and offline. Girls who don’t understand that already have no business being on the internet… If you ask me, she’s totally asking for it. Why would you even put a pic up there if you weren’t asking for someone to comment on the way you look?” By the way, it’s not a pic of the gamer herself, it’s a pic of someone the poster should recognize if she works at eSports, as she claims.
It becomes apparent through the thread that there’s a bit of context us non-gamers may have missed: when a woman posts something about being a woman, the first thing other posters need to establish is whether she is genuine or “an attention whore.” Quite a bit of post dissection is devoted to this investigation, because no one ever admits they just hate women. Misogynists always provide a Real Good Reason why they hate women, and in the case of gamers, that “reason” is that, they claim, most women who game court the attention of boys and men who pursue them for cyber-sex. The Real Good Reason is then supported by evidence that is interpreted anyway it must be interpreted to support the Real Good Reason.
Over and over, women are advised not to tell anyone they are female if they want to avoid harassment. It’s their job to avoid harassment, you see, certainly not, say, that administrator’s job to shut down harassment. No, the only post that gets a warning is this one: “The question is why she is not in the kitchen making me a sandwich ?”
There are actually a number of comments pointing out the misogyny in this thread, and doing it well. It’s also interesting to note that the female eSports misogynist gets picked apart and trashed almost as badly as the original poster.
This thread also brings up something you should know about: Blizzard, a major gaming forum, had plans to introduce RealID to its forums. So that posters would be easily identified by, I dunno, long lost friends and people who want to teach that whore a lesson up close and personal. If they’re thinking RealID would out the stalkers before their potential victims, they really need to talk to some law enforcement personnel. ETA: Blizzard reluctantly pulled these plans in the face of major public opposition, but never expressed the slightest concern about cyber-stalking or privacy in general.
Thoughts?
{ 155 comments… read them below or add one }
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The difference is, idiot, that we are all still allowed to play poker. You and your kind are actively trying to prevent women from playing at all.
Having a male only and a female only table or two at a large poker tournament is fine. Actively harassing or barring women at the entire tournament is not.
What next, are you going to be complaining about gender segregated bathrooms when someone points out how hard it is for a woman to become president? FFS.
GardenGoblin(Quote) (Reply)
Yes, thank you! There is a difference between creating a limited or exclusive group within a hobby and excluding a demographic group from an entire hobby. It’s hard to credit that anyone would seriously have trouble understanding this concept.
Which, Hmmmm, is why people doubt your sincerity and figure you’re just desperate to rationalize your desire for people to stop pointing out reality.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
“You… lack intellectual rigor”
This is one of the greatest burns that I have ever seen.
Patrick McGraw(Quote) (Reply)
“Huh, how do you turn that part of the brain off?”
/ignore
followed by solo questing and professions/Auction House gold farming.
I don’t know if it’s just my servers happen to have a stricter GM-team than most or what, but I’ve never run into anything harsher than the occasional “girls don’t play WOW” troll who bores everyone before the trade chat moves back to weed jokes. :/ (The GMs even rename characters with explicitly sexual, racist, or sexist names, like “bigtitsrock” or what have you.)
Gearscore drama and petty wank is actually the biggest blood-boilers for me, so I avoid raids and most guilds like the plague because, seriously, if the healer didn’t die the tank did his/her job, so just shut up, there is more than one way to play a class, k?
DragonLady(Quote) (Reply)
Hello there! I’m a guy.
Now that that’s out of the way, I agree wholeheartedly with your post. I’ve seen it in other online games and settings all the time. I think most people are missing the fact that female gamers that log in to play a game might just want to do that.
(If they craved attention of THAT kind, they’d probably solicit it formally; yes I’ve seen THAT too.
)
To be honest, I do flirt with female gamers at times, but if I’m ever told to stop, I do. Harmless flirting is fun. Sexual harassment, on the other hand, is not.
I don’t really have much more to add, but I liked the article. Kudos!
Winterfate(Quote) (Reply)
Ugh, the hateful stupidity just keeps coming in all directions. There was a discussion on /wooo/ as to whether or not AJ Lee is really a nerd/girl gamer of if that’s just her wrestling gimmick and I found this atrocious post:
“Here is how it works, been gaming for 20+ years and before the whole “omg gamez are coolz” craze that came with xbox trash no girl gamers.
Games were bad, considered hated and for the lazy retards.
no, no girl is a gamer, that is why even in competition gaming the women can not compete for shit.
I remember the PMS clan, ran into a few of their better players in cal, aced them so much they bitched to the admin who promptly laughed and told them to deal with equal rights in gaming.
long story short the bitches were banned for bitching and moaning that even cal o league newbies were stomping them in droves.
bitches cant game”
IT BURNS!!!
Casey(Quote) (Reply)
And remember – he’s the desirable demographic! Yay!
Patrick McGraw(Quote) (Reply)
Yeah, and I didn’t even bother to mention his obviously dreadful ableism… >_<
And for some reason equal rights in gaming = BITCHES AND WHORES I SMOKE U LOL
Casey(Quote) (Reply)
How?
How have i managed to NOT find this website? i should be here ALL THE TIME.
i cannot currently play WoW – meds that mess with depth perception and etc. so playing WoW is impossible – but i love WoW. i hate a good third of the PLAYERS…
i don’t *hide* that i’m female, i just don’t *advertize* -
but i have been *gaming* [as in Dungeons and Dragons type tabletop] since i was 6 years old. in 1983. i’ve played D&D most of my life, i still play -
]
and i keep running into idiots like the one quoted above, that women aren’t “real” gamers, because there weren’t female gamers before X time -
except there WERE! i was taught to game by my Aunt, who had been gaming since the first RPGs came out. i’ve ALWAYS known female gamers.
[and... i still sometimes get the whole "you must be here searching for a Man" BS. STILL. it's beyond annoying
now, i’m getting “you’re in a wheelchair, we don’t have the money to accomodate you, go away” BS. and i’m the BAD GUY, because i can’t access the store i want to go to, because they refuse to follow the law and be accessable. *I* am the Bad Guy – i might cause them to go out of business! [i used to work at this store. when MEN in wheelchairs wanted to shop, they found ways to accomodate THEM, generally by having other guys in the shop pick up customer, wheelchair and all, and carry him in. that's what i expected. instead, i was told to go away. when i pointed out past accomodation, i was told "you're female, we can't do that" for... some reason]
sigh
denelian(Quote) (Reply)
That sounds…ARGH and just plain weird. “We can’t carry you into the store, wheelchair and all ‘cuz you’re female”? HOW DOES THAT EVEN WORK? Are they afraid they’ll suffer from some sexual harassment suit or some shit? If you can, you should definitely sue them for blatant ableism mixed with misogyny.
Casey(Quote) (Reply)
Are they afraid they’ll suffer from some sexual harassment suit or some shit?
I’d not be surprised if that’s what they claim.
women aren’t “real” gamers, because there weren’t female gamers before X time -
And obviously roleplaying isn’t a real hobby because it didn’t exist before Y time… bwugh ludicrous illogic.
SunlessNick(Quote) (Reply)
Well, if we’re talking about the US, carrying people into your building doesn’t qualify as “accessible”, so if they are required to make their building accessible, then the excuse “we might get sued for touching a woman” is useless. They’re just violating the law, and acting with complete disregard for certain customers.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
@Jenn — it’s against the law but not untypical, at all, to have schools or businesses claiming that they’re accessible when they’re not really so. Or that accessibility means something different depending on how visible the disability is.
Random anecdata: Even my HS, which was a fairly new building, was not REALLY accessible for teachers with disabilities — the handicap entrance wasn’t accessible from the teachers’ parking lot… where teachers were required to park. For a while they “allowed” him to park in the visitors’ parking lot, where the ramp was, but he and my mom (who also taught there and was also disabled) stood up to the crazy principal one too many times and they revoked that “privilege.” IDK what it was like for students with disabilities, but know that the elevators regularly didn’t work and that the cameras meant to monitor student safety in those elevators were never replaced even tho obviously broken.
Maria(Quote) (Reply)
Nerdy trivia: There are pics of cosplayers as early as the 1920s.
Maria(Quote) (Reply)
I ended up dropping out of HS because of accessibility issues. All’s well that ends well, I went off to college early, but I was lucky that I was in a position to.
Also, small businesses, especially ones that pay rent are rarely forced to follow laws concerning disability, and in the US, the only way to attempt to force the issue is a law suit. So yeah, carrying worked for them because their disabled costumers agreed with it, and they know that the only thing you can do about them being assholes is sue them, which is a pain.
Attackfish(Quote) (Reply)
What the …
There are really no words. I’m sorry you have to deal with such utter BS. Their hate and contempt for women must really run deep if they’d rather lose a paying customer or even risk a law suit than treat you with basic human decency. But hey … I guess women aren’t human, are we? Especially if we’re not “perfect” like the “booth babes” or the wankaids on the gaming mag covers (and don’t get me started on either of THOSE).
Korva(Quote) (Reply)
That’s why I really need to buy The Feminist Cabal!
Casey(Quote) (Reply)
You know what? I redact my earlier optimistic comment; this shit is just as stupid as the ol’ strawperson attention-whore who goes, “Oh, I’m a girl who does [insert nerdy hobby usually coded as male here]. Don’t hit on me, silly boys~<3"
Casey(Quote) (Reply)
Hope I’m not totally necroing this..
This reminds me of an all-female clan I used to be in when I used to play socom II online. We received harassment from guys, but they had a hard time getting to any of us (hard for 4 or 5 guys to talk down 10+ women lol). We got along great with each other, which seemed to blow some of their minds (I am so damn tired of this stereotype, girls and women start to believe it too!).
I really wish this behaviour was surprising, but it isn’t, it’s everywhere. Whenever these guys start wondering why women don’t want to play with them, I just have to shake my head at the sheer cluelessness. When all your dudebro friends default to “tits or gtfo”, do you REALLY need to question why we don’t want to talk to you?
I’m really glad to see that at least a FEW people got it. I’ve had really good experiences playing online, like one time I played a great game of TF2. The other players knew I was a woman because we were talking on voicecom, but they didn’t say shit about it. One of the players on my team even told me that I was the best medic he ever played with and hoped I would play again soon.
If more of these guys would catch a clue (and stop being misogynist assholes) and start acting like the guy I just mentioned, then women might actually want to play games with them, what a concept! Oh and making more games that have awesome female characters and less T&A and macho fantasies would help too (Blizzard is pretty fail at that in general, actually.)
tpallagi(Quote) (Reply)
I really appreciate this post in general (plus all the great comments, despite not being a gamer myself…) and I see this kind of behavior all the time with my little brother. He’s in middle school, I’m in high school. I love him to death, but I sometimes see he and his friends engaging in a milder form of this kind of language whenever one of his girl friends goes on line to play a game. I try to call him out on it whenever possible, but I can’t be there all the time. What I wonder is this: what can I possibly do to stop this kind of action? Our house, I tend to think, is fairly feminist-positive, but the media culture and his friends aren’t really doing anything but hurting this situation.
*And yes, I am THAT kind of overly-concerned older sister. XD
Emily(Quote) (Reply)
Thoughts? I think I’m nauseous. men certainly must be so threatened by us to get so nasty. what scaredycats.
eviltwit(Quote) (Reply)
Okay, I’m not a gamer, and I don’t know how things work. (And, excuse me if someone has already thought of this or whatever.) But, after reading through all the comments, I had a thought: Why don’t female gamers organize? All get together – and flood the games – these places which are so unfriendly to women – en masse – in one spot or another – sort of like an ambush at differently points. Strength in numbers. After reading that some women pretend to be male (which is so sad, but I do understand, after reading the pathetic things that men *say* on the boards or whatever), I think perhaps with a horde of sisters behind one, you could prevail – slowly and bit by bit. But I do think it has to be done – all at once, all in one spot – by many, many women gamers – and then repeated on different boards? Like a protest but basically asserting our rights for women to play unharrassed on these games. Maybe you could even pick a day or something. To start it? I don’t know. But there has to be a better solution than just leaving the games or self-segregation. Or the men who *say* such things will never learn that they can’t just *push* women around. Online. Jeez. What utter cowards. How many of them would say these things to our faces?
eviltwit(Quote) (Reply)
eviltwit,
Well, I don’t game in multi-player games, but this whole thing kicked off when women tried to do exactly that. =/
Sylvia Sybil(Quote) (Reply)
Sylvia Sybil,
ah. that would be what “battle of male and female clans” mean.
guess i’ll stay out of this one then. not having any clue as to what i’m talking about.
just sort of reminds me of the trains in india (and japan). women getting felt up on the co-ed trains and the “solution” was make some women-only cars. NOT educate the men on how they should treat the women with respect. just segregate, segregate, segregate. you know, that way the “problem” is out of sight. all’s well that ends well.
and so it goes.
eviltwit(Quote) (Reply)
Sylvia Sybil,
p.s. the only game i’ve ever played multi-player online was back when you could first do that with Jeopardy – must have been around 1995-1997. i don’t think that counts. (no harassment there.) i’ve only really ever played Doom/Doom II. by myself. before even those years. i’m not much of a gamer. probably a good thing. i don’t need any more procrastination.
eviltwit(Quote) (Reply)
i am genuinely surprised that people can still be so primitive.
it kinda pains me to see such underdeveloped male gamebase.
the problem is probably the sheer amount of stupidity that has taken over against common sense in the relations.
Male that sexually harass girls 90% of times have poor to none sexual experience in Rl, thus a screwed up and mislead perception of the women in general.
an other issue is the leaking respect for the female and points of view that fit better in the 19th century ( mixed whit a macho culture that is obsolete in the 21th century )
now speaking out of my teeth, i happen to have really short temper vs people that offend/disrespect females. in online games as in RL i tend to annihilate ( in game) hit till he apologizes ( in RL).
the disrespectful ones just need to be given a taste of their own medicine.
Kilotov the dwarf(Quote) (Reply)
Not for nothing Kilotov, but I have ZERO sexual experience IRL and that doesn’t mean I act like an asshole to the opposite sex.
Then again I’m a woman so I guess that doesn’t count/doesn’t matter….
Casey(Quote) (Reply)
Well, that’s the thing. Everybody’s socialized to know how NOT to offend or piss off men, because men’s feelings are so important. Many people are not socialized to know how not to offend or piss off women, because women’s feelings are not important. So boys are left on their own to figure out what now seems to be “the mystery” that is Woman.
It’s all bullshit, and it creates lots of problems for everyone (though, I strongly believe, a truly “nice guy” will be awkward and confused but not mean or creepy as he struggles to figure this stuff out).
Kilotov is not far off, but the real problem is that these guys are approaching women’s feelings and sensibilities like a game: shoot down her first objection to whatever you want from her, go to Level 2! Now she raises a new objection, and you must find the Key To Her Heart and blow that objection away to go to Level 3! When this brilliant (rapey) strategy doesn’t work, they get angry and blame all women in general, thinking we’ve failed to play by the rules.
They don’t get that we’re human, like them, not prizes to be won through skill and cleverness.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Don’t any of these men we’re talking about have mothers or sisters that they treat with respect? I mean, come ON. It seems to me that many of these men are just plain idiots and are treating women thusly simply because they feel they’re entitled to it – not because they have no idea how to treat women with respect – but because they don’t think they have to.
eviltwit(Quote) (Reply)
I think Jennifer’s said it before, but most misogynists love their mothers/sisters/grandmas/insert female relative here/etc. as “exceptional women” but treat every other women like shit ‘cuz that’s just how they operate.
Casey(Quote) (Reply)
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