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There exist guys who have (a) read feminist literature, and (b) agree that there continues to be a need for feminism. Unfortunately, at least where I come from (small northeastern town), people find male feminists laughable.

2) If a guy says “As far as I’m concerned you’re equal to me”, it certainly does sound like he’s doing you a big favour by seeing you as equal, as if women need men’s approval to actually be equal to men – ie women are NOT equal to men. This probably was not the speaker’s intention, but as women who are sick to death of seeing women treated or portrayed as inferior in our society, it’s perfectly understandable for us to be a bit pissed off when a guy phrases things that way. It reminds me of how I get annoyed when women say “well, I guess we should be thankful that we get treated reasonably well in the Western World, in comparison to how women are treated in certain other countries”. It would piss me off more if a man said “You should be thankful….”. No, we should not be thankful. We have a right to be treated as equal because we ARE equal – being equal is the natural state – it is the laws and customs made by men in the distant and not so distant past that cause inequality in the way women are treated and considered. To state that we should be “thankful” assumes that the natural state is that women are NOT equal, and are merely lucky if they get treated well by men (like they’re doing us a favour). Does everyone know what I mean?

Christians are a diverse group. Feminists are a diverse group. Atheists and anarchists are also very diverse. That’s why labels are so inadequate. When someone tells me “I’m a [whatever]” I generally ask them precisely what that means to them, and if they blink at me like I’m crazy, I tell them, “I’ve met a lot of [whatevers], and in my experience they don’t all agree on everything.”

What Firebird mentioned about her gut reaction to my statement of religion is, I think, pretty significant to the issue of communication. People on any side of an issue have often had bad experiences that strongly affect their viewpoint and will affect how they perceive someone else’s words. The “polite fiction of equality” being another good example, as how a statement of equality will be perceived can depend heavily on the listener’s experiences. I don’t think anyone is immune to this. It is a much more understandable source of prejudice than simple ignorance or bigotry.

(As a personal example, I’ve had plenty of bad experiences with fans of Richard Dawkins who dismiss anything I say as invalid because I am mentally ill, infected with the “thought virus” of religion. As a result, I will often perceive any declared atheist as being arrogant and condescending despite their actual intentions.)

What you describe IS the beginning of the polite fiction. Once you fully comprehend that a bunch of learned men could in all seriousness pen the phrase “all men” but mean “white male land owners” by it, you can’t comfortably go back to the blind assumption that all Americans are Equal and Free and Overflowing With Opportunity just because that’s the PR we’ve been fed from an early age.

And then when someone tells you, “You know, I don’t feel so equal” it’s hard to assume they don’t know what they’re talking about.

Nick, I completely understand feeling like there is no right answer, like you are damned if you do and damned if you don’t. I think what happens, and what is problematic in these situations is when a statement about me get derailed to being about you. - Firebird

It’s also an implicit denial that women are individuals – different women will naturally react to things differently – where you are suspicious of being told you’re equal, another woman might consider it a nice gesture, another might find it patronising, another might count a perceived need to say it as appeasement of the opposite sentiment as also legitimate, another might be relived, another might consider it a nice gesture but one that needs backup from actions, and another might find it meaningless altogether. Humans are like that.

Anyway, Patrick, you put it exactly right for A). I would have had difficulty clarifying what the problem is, and indeed, as I was coming to your comment I was listening to the memory of the guys who have said this to me again, and realizing it was everything to do with how it was said. And thanks to everyone who pointed out that it is not entirely the listener’s responsibility to puzzle out the proper meaning behind a poorly worded communication.

Nick, if *you* said to me that you thought women were equal with men, I would probably hug you, because I know from your posts and comments here what kind of mindset you are saying it from. Even so, I think “equal” is a trigger for me personally because saying someone is equal in our society has become kind of a code for saying that people are not in fact equal but that we will all abide by a polite fiction that they are. Or is that just me? Perhaps that is my cynicism commenting on the “All men are created equal” that founded our society and excluded women and non-whites and non-property holders.

I had a guy ask me once if I could honestly say that anyone had ever told me I couldn’t do something because I was a woman. Now, this was not precisely the same sort of situation; I never labeled myself in conversation, and we were discussing a class we were taking together that dwelled on gender and sexuality in the Hebrew Bible. It was obvious that he had formulated this question expecting to show me something about my own feminism, and that he had used it successfully on other women, but I didn’t at the time find that offensive, mostly because when I said that yes, I had in fact been mistreated and oppressed in precisely that way, he listened and asked questions and I could see that he was thinking what I was saying through. That was one way to respond to finding that a woman that you expected to respond one way did not, in fact, do so.

I think labels are problematic. When Patrick says he is a Christian, a lot of emotions flare for me, especially today. That’s my junk and it doesn’t belong here, except as an analogy. In retrospect, I think I generally resort to the feminist label when I am faced with a guy who isn’t understanding why a conversation isn’t going the way he expected or whathaveyou. In other words, I think my results may be skewed because I tend to use the label in situations where simple sharing of perspective isn’t working – meaning, the guys so presented with my label are more likely not to “get it”.

Nick, I completely understand feeling like there is no right answer, like you are damned if you do and damned if you don’t. I think what happens, and what is problematic in these situations is when a statement about me get derailed to being about you. It’s a natural human response to anything that feels indicting. Our first concern is to make sure that we personally are the exception to any rule, and still acceptable. It’s a really hard urge to fight, but I think it is really important to fight it, and not just as a man talking to feminists.

I do think that it can be a source of friction, as a male ally talking to a feminist, though, because taking the conversational focus back onto yourself can feel like the same old same old, and undermine anything you say with the metamessage that says “I’m the most important thing here.” I don’t say that you or anyone specifically else is saying that intentionally, other than that usually we each are operating from the idea that “I” am most important. I think mature, adult communication recognizes that pitfall and strives to avoid it.

If you are asking what to say when a woman says she is a feminist, I would go with something that draws her out. Why did she say that, just then? Was she apologizing for a comment she thought you would misunderstand? Reacting to perceived privilege on your part? Starting a discussion? Explaining a viewpoint? Being hostile? What does she mean by it and what is she trying to accomplish? Does her viewpoint interest you? Are you willing to engage the conversation/subject? Like I said, when I’m confronted with a label I tend to take a step back and think about what it means and try to engage the person on why they believe what they believe. Unless it is not someone I like or want to understand, in which case I just take a step back and find a reason to excuse myself.

And Rob, no, Rush Limbaugh is NOT the only man who uses the term feminazi. I was not calling men assholes…but I have, regularly, heard men AND WOMEN use that term to me. Regularly, and yes, sometimes in the exact context I quoted it in.

B) is the one that aggravates me most, and it can be found in all sorts of situations apart from feminism. I’ve lost count of the number of people who, upon learning that I’m a Christian, responded that I simply couldn’t be, because I’m kind, considerate, and respectful of others.

C) is a pretty comon tactic for all sorts of things, I’ve noticed. I don’t know what the term for it is, but it’s the fallacy where you treat a single point as embodying the entirety of someone’s argument, so by “disproving” this one thing, you have proven that their entire position is worthless.