In response to our recent story on Sexual harassment for female players in Starcraft2 thread, reader mOnion commented:
I have an incriminating recording of one of the mods from the site saying to a young lady “bitch make me a sandwiche, I’m busy playing starcraft”
if you’d like a copy of the .mp3 just followup this comment
I was skeptical, because, you know, how do you get a sound recording of something an online admin said? It struck me as far-fetched, but I wanted to see where it went, so I emailed mOnion with what I suspected a plant would consider the proper amount of enthusiasm:
Hi there,
I’d love to hear your MP3 of the moderator you mentioned on The Hathor Legacy. Do you have any way to authenticate it – prove that it’s who you say it is, and all that? Because I would not mind taking these guys on if I had the right ammo.
mOnion wrote back describing difficulty finding the Mp3 because “its buried amongst my music and porn sry”.
Today one of the TeamLiquid forum admins emailed me a screenshot of my email to mOnion, presumably for the purpose of intimidating me into silence. But the screenshot just proves that mOnion was indeed a plant trying to get a response that would cast doubt on my trustworthiness. As I described in the original article, attempts to cast doubt on the veracity of women seems to be the standard TeamLiquid method for silencing them. The possibility that a poster claiming to be a woman might be a man or an “attention whore” (see the original article) concerns them greatly. The possibility that a poster claiming to be a man might be a woman doesn’t even rate a glance, as evidenced by the number of women at both TeamLiquid and my original story claiming to use exactly that strategy to avoid being harassed endlessly.
I suspect if mOnion and the admin had gotten the “incriminating” response mOnion hoped for, they’d have just posted it on their forum and ripped me to shreds – and fair enough, actually. But I know a thing or two about both journalism and trolls. I asked for authentication and gave no hint I’d move forward with anything about the mp3 unless I got authentication. That’s a higher standard of journalism than the mainstream press bothers with these days. My story was comprised of quotes from the TeamLiquid forum, which all of you can go verify for yourselves unless they delete or edit the thread, and some clearly demarcated non-factual opinion commentary. And yet the TeamLiquid admin’s email calls the story a “hack job” lacking “much needed context” and invites me to a public debate somewhere other than my site because he won’t have his side of the story “edited or deleted.”
mOnion posted a derogatory lie about TeamLiquid on Hathor, and TeamLiquid thinks we’ve wronged them.
Before the admin triumphantly posts a screenshot of my email response to him, yawn, here it is:
And why do you think I asked mOnion to authenticate? Because I had wondered from the start where one obtained a sound recording of an admin who probably lives a thousand miles away saying anything. And you guys worry about women being liars.
So this kind of half-ass deception is how you guys handle things, yet you think by simply quoting your site (facts) and sharing a clearly non-factual interpretation of them, I’ve somehow wronged you?
Rich. Very rich. The story is perfectly valid, and you know it. You are tolerating misogyny publicly on your website, but indicate it’s unfair for anyone to point it out publicly? But I should trust you to engage in a public debate? Gee, I think that would be unwise on my part.
When you’re reporting on sexism, one thing you never have to do is make stuff up, because there’s so much of the real deal available. TeamLiquid has the legal right to tolerate misogyny and even rape jokes on their forum because women are not recognized as a group against whom “hate crimes” may be committed in the USA. But other sites certainly have the right to criticize TeamLiquid.
This elaborate (though not very convincing) little ruse from the boyz at TeamLiquid raises an interesting irony: while they’re busy worrying that every poster claiming to be a straightforward woman/girl who games might not be what she seems, these guys are proving themselves liars and deceivers.
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Shame there’s no polite varieties to at least discuss the matter with. But I suppose part of the issue is a fact that they’re not able to relate to other viewpoints on this at all. And I suppose that is because there can hardly be a middle ground and real discussion on the merits of the arguments of both sides. They’re just.. way out of line and don’t like to see themselves as such. Reflection on the self and all that.
Hmm-Hmm.(Quote) (Reply)
And what if it were a niche thing? Are equal rights not a fundamental part of modern western societies? Do we not care about the few (if the few it is) who suffer? Do we not care about general behaviour towards others (regardless of who they are)?
Well, maybe not, then. That, I daresay, does say something about TeamLiquid’s moderators.
Hmm-Hmm.(Quote) (Reply)
I’m confused…
The links that Jennifer posted do, in fact, show Team Liquid getting over 20x the average traffic of Hathor Legacty. This is, as said, ‘several times’.
If you had two friends, one making $30k per year, and another making $600k (20x), you would probably consider friend two significantly more wealthy, right?
Did the people who responded even check the links? Please enlighten me on how you came up with the ‘about the same’ conclusion.
Not a man(Quote) (Reply)
I’ve been modding a lot of comments which claim the links I provided show TL getting 10x Hathor’s traffic. They’ve also posted that on blogs ’round the web. And now, suddenly, they’ve bumped it up to 20x. Could the lie be anymore blatant? So I’m letting this comment through for demonstration purposes.
Yes, we looked at the links, and apparently we have math skillz you guys lack. The links clearly show:
Hathor: 10,900 US visitors
TL: 23,800 US visitors.
On what planet is 23,800 ten times 10,900, let alone twenty times? (And to clarify: a couple of weeks ago when I said the difference was not substantial, TL’s numbers were reporting at around 18,000.)
Now. I’m sure TL is a bigger site than Hathor. I couldn’t care less. But you’re only destroying any credibility you might have by running around the web claiming that if you multiply 10,900 ten times, you get 23,800. This is the sort of mind-bogglingly blatant lie first graders expect to get away with.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Coagulation, your last comment that I deleted said this:
This is not just a difference of opinion. It’s offensive enough to suggest that stupid people deserve to be treated horribly, especially given that you’re not coming off too bright here yourself. But the woman in the thread was sexually harassed IMMEDIATELY. Therefore, and here’s the rest of what’s ridiculously offensive: you are either suggesting that TL trolls are so psychic they could identify the poster as stupid from one well-written post in which she asked if there were other women and girls interested in starting a clan, or you are suggesting that all women are automatically stupid, or you are suggesting that women wanting to form clans in your game are automatically stupid (but men forming clans are not).
NONE of which even begins to explain why women who confirm their womanhood by displaying pics that reveal them to be other than gorgeous get harassed, too, so I think your argument isn’t even intended to be reasoned or thoughtful: just typical trolling. Move along, now.
ETA: my original post clearly acknowledged that after the trolls had an unmoderated field day, a lot of TL posters made great arguments against the treatment of the OP and women in general at TL (and my second post discussed the actions of specific individuals).
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
From now on, put up a rule that you’ll answer or allow TL doodz in only if they first present us all with pictures of themselves dressed in furry bunny bikinis.
Yes, big bunny ears and fluffy tails stitched on the back of the bottom are mandatory.
Cinnabar(Quote) (Reply)
Frankly, I’d have a hard time not harassing that person for the perceived stupid the comments revealed. At the very least, incredibly poor execution of the English language.
But that would be okay, right? S/he’d “deserve” it.
sbg(Quote) (Reply)
Eh, bunnies do nothing for me. I demand firefighter-themed bikinis. I mean, it would still be somewhat degrading but at least I would get more pleasure out of it. And that’s what’s important here.
sbg(Quote) (Reply)
This is the kind of comment where I wouldn’t even know where to start.
The Other Patrick(Quote) (Reply)
Well, a good starting place would be to read 1984! It’s a good book. And… in this case saves you the trouble of worrying too much about coagulation, who has evidently missed the point.
Hathor Legacy is not the state. Any person who does not like what they read here has the freedom to go somewhere else.
Indeed, they even have a right of reply in their own space. The internet is impressively fair in that way.
Dom Camus(Quote) (Reply)
I have deleted a lot of comments stating that we are “censoring” viewpoints, because I find it really offensive when people play the “censorship” card anytime they don’t get to say not only WHAT they want to say, but WHERE they want to say it. Censorship is when you’re not allowed to express certain thoughts, period, ever, without punishment up to and including state execution. Under USA free speech laws, you can be arrested for yelling “fire” in a crowded theater or spouting atheist views disruptively at a church. People can eject you from their homes for saying stuff they don’t like to hear, even if they invited you. Free speech does not extend to the right to disrupt lives and businesses, and censorship does not include defensive acts by people or the state preventing you from disrupting them with your speech.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Yes, but this is only one part. There is:
a) a blog is not the state, your idea of censorship is ridiculous (see also: Dr. Laura)
b) have you actually read 1984? If yes, why are your allusions to this book and what you learned from it so wrong?
c) you make factually incorrect claims
d) a lesson in privilege, safe spaces, and what you think are “equal rights”
e) basic grammar lessons
The Other Patrick(Quote) (Reply)
I wouldn’t mind the “censorship” so much if it was applicable to all. Comments like from the user below (not to pick on this user specifically, but it was the latest of such) which seemingly violate several of the supposed “Discussion Guildelines” are allowed through as long as they are supportive of your agenda.
And while you are technically right about the censorship laws, it doesn’t necessarily inarguably define censorship as a principle (appeal to authority much?) – not to mention in this case, it just sounds like you’re drawing a hyperbole of an argument to justify your actions (how any of those situations could be compared to posting comments in a blog, I don’t know). Really, when you first started going about justifying deleting posts, I couldn’t help but wonder how easily you could conveniently sweep up many valid counterpoints (perhaps leaving a few for you to strategically debunk) along with more clear pieces of anti-feminist invective and other nasty bits.
Of course, I may still be the bigger fool in this situation if this post never makes it through.
Geoff(Quote) (Reply)
Nothing in the comment you’re referring to violates guidelines. He’s analyzing what’s wrong with coagulent’s arguments and comment. If you have difficulty distinguishing an uncompromising but fair and guideline-abiding response from the sort of responses that violate the guidelines, that may explain a whole lot of the communication breakdown.
It’s the pro-TL group who’s engaging in hyperbole by crying “censorship” when they get their comments modded, so your second paragraph is very puzzling. All comments were moderated carefully, and those we didn’t post were held back for specific reasons.
The fact that some of you don’t seem to understand those reasons does not mean they don’t exist. It means you’re unfamiliar with concepts like “safe spaces”, privilege and other principles equality activist sites tend to share. Our comment policy is neither unusual nor particularly restrictive, especially compared to some of what else is out there.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
I traded my boyfriend in for a husband, so I guess I’m not qualified to give an opinion either.
GardenGoblin(Quote) (Reply)
Never mind that some women would also rather have a girlfriend, rendering them positively useless as far as opinions go…
sbg(Quote) (Reply)
I’m late to the party and I don’t think of myself as a polite variety, but I am willing to discuss the matter with you. I am a gamer, a gender egalitarian, and a frequent visitor to the TeamLiquid forums. Misogyny is an enormous problem in every gaming community I know of, and I am glad to see it addressed. On the other hand I am ignorant of the history of this particular conflict, other than what I have read in the articles and comments on this website. As a result I am somewhat put off by the blanket insults directed at members of TeamLiquid, gamers, and privileged folks in general. I hope the posters here are still interested in a respectful discussion; if not, I can understand why.
Ling(Quote) (Reply)
I’ve just re-checked the comments and original article. There’s nothing resembling a blanket insult on the entire page – though I sure can’t say the same for the TL forum! I have posted your comment strictly to show just how many people coming from TL insist on using strawman arguments and think we’ll be stupid enough not to recognize the tactic.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Jennifer, if I may interject?
Geoff, you seem to be missing a basic principle of Internet etiquette (called “netiquette”): the blog vs. the community. A blog (called a personal journal on Livejournal) is one person or a select group of persons making entry posts on a subject that other people may comment upon. It’s like a diary or book open for public review. It is the Internet version of someone’s home or land — private property over which the owner has sole discretion and anyone who comes is but a visitor. A community is a group of people who can all make entry posts on various facets of a subject and comment upon others’ entries, within whatever rules for engagement the community agrees on, and anyone who keeps within those rules may say whatever he or she likes at any time to anyone he or she likes (and the other person has to hear it even if they choose not to reply). It is the Internet equivalent of a bar: neutral territory.
This is not a community. It is a blog: no one has posting rights but Jennifer and the writing staff. It is Jennifer’s property and as such she has the right to dictate what may be said at her whim. Booting a member of the writing staff would also be well within her authority. It’s her blog.
What we — the writing staff and readers — are complaing about amongst ourselves on this, Jennifer’s property, is that certain message boards (communities by their very definition) have rules of engagement that make it difficult if not impossible for women to participate, that the moderating teams of those communities interpret what rules do exist in the community so loosely that even those provide no protection, and that the moderating teams of those communities NOT ONLY have no interest in changing the situation but actually think that the situation is right and just.
To use a similie (a figure of speech indirectly comparing two unlike things to make a point) for Jennifer to leave her blog to complain on the TL community would be like a black man leaving his home to walk into a restaurant run by the KKK and complain that their restaurant lets black people enter but always serves them cold food and hot beer. There is no point. The KKK believes that treating blacks that way is acceptable and right, just as the TL mods believe that treating female gamers in such a fashion is acceptable and right. Nothing Jennifer could say about her ethical perception is going to change the TL moderating team’s ethical perceptions until they are ready, in and of themselves, to change (and then they won’t need her), just as a black man is not going to be able to convince the KKK leadership that blacks deserve a welcome of hot food and cold beer until they are ready to change (and then they won’t need him).
DragonLady(Quote) (Reply)
*slow freaking clap*
Cinnabar(Quote) (Reply)
Indeed.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
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