In response to our recent story on Sexual harassment for female players in Starcraft2 thread, reader mOnion commented:
I have an incriminating recording of one of the mods from the site saying to a young lady “bitch make me a sandwiche, I’m busy playing starcraft”
if you’d like a copy of the .mp3 just followup this comment
I was skeptical, because, you know, how do you get a sound recording of something an online admin said? It struck me as far-fetched, but I wanted to see where it went, so I emailed mOnion with what I suspected a plant would consider the proper amount of enthusiasm:
Hi there,
I’d love to hear your MP3 of the moderator you mentioned on The Hathor Legacy. Do you have any way to authenticate it – prove that it’s who you say it is, and all that? Because I would not mind taking these guys on if I had the right ammo.
mOnion wrote back describing difficulty finding the Mp3 because “its buried amongst my music and porn sry”.
Today one of the TeamLiquid forum admins emailed me a screenshot of my email to mOnion, presumably for the purpose of intimidating me into silence. But the screenshot just proves that mOnion was indeed a plant trying to get a response that would cast doubt on my trustworthiness. As I described in the original article, attempts to cast doubt on the veracity of women seems to be the standard TeamLiquid method for silencing them. The possibility that a poster claiming to be a woman might be a man or an “attention whore” (see the original article) concerns them greatly. The possibility that a poster claiming to be a man might be a woman doesn’t even rate a glance, as evidenced by the number of women at both TeamLiquid and my original story claiming to use exactly that strategy to avoid being harassed endlessly.
I suspect if mOnion and the admin had gotten the “incriminating” response mOnion hoped for, they’d have just posted it on their forum and ripped me to shreds – and fair enough, actually. But I know a thing or two about both journalism and trolls. I asked for authentication and gave no hint I’d move forward with anything about the mp3 unless I got authentication. That’s a higher standard of journalism than the mainstream press bothers with these days. My story was comprised of quotes from the TeamLiquid forum, which all of you can go verify for yourselves unless they delete or edit the thread, and some clearly demarcated non-factual opinion commentary. And yet the TeamLiquid admin’s email calls the story a “hack job” lacking “much needed context” and invites me to a public debate somewhere other than my site because he won’t have his side of the story “edited or deleted.”
mOnion posted a derogatory lie about TeamLiquid on Hathor, and TeamLiquid thinks we’ve wronged them.
Before the admin triumphantly posts a screenshot of my email response to him, yawn, here it is:
And why do you think I asked mOnion to authenticate? Because I had wondered from the start where one obtained a sound recording of an admin who probably lives a thousand miles away saying anything. And you guys worry about women being liars.
So this kind of half-ass deception is how you guys handle things, yet you think by simply quoting your site (facts) and sharing a clearly non-factual interpretation of them, I’ve somehow wronged you?
Rich. Very rich. The story is perfectly valid, and you know it. You are tolerating misogyny publicly on your website, but indicate it’s unfair for anyone to point it out publicly? But I should trust you to engage in a public debate? Gee, I think that would be unwise on my part.
When you’re reporting on sexism, one thing you never have to do is make stuff up, because there’s so much of the real deal available. TeamLiquid has the legal right to tolerate misogyny and even rape jokes on their forum because women are not recognized as a group against whom “hate crimes” may be committed in the USA. But other sites certainly have the right to criticize TeamLiquid.
This elaborate (though not very convincing) little ruse from the boyz at TeamLiquid raises an interesting irony: while they’re busy worrying that every poster claiming to be a straightforward woman/girl who games might not be what she seems, these guys are proving themselves liars and deceivers.
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And of course, we know how this story will be remembered.
Woman files legitimate complaint on their own website of misogyny, and the enabling thereof.
Men lie, and attempt to humiliate individual women with their lies.
Woman points this out.
Women Be Bitches.
Jennifer, you’ve clearly been active and aware of the wide reaching-ness of this BS. How do you not explode?
Rutee(Quote) (Reply)
It seems like the ultimate “damned if you do, damned if you don’t” situation. Engage, and you “prove” what bitches women are and therefore they win; ignore and you’ve been silenced and therefore they win.
I use the term win loosely.
Frankly, it’s this kind of casual misogyny that is super rampant in not only places like this but in any public forum – take, for example, my foray into the comment section of a recent post about the Seattle Storm winning the WNBA title – for every “Hey, congrats to them!” comment there were at least ten blatantly misogynist comments about the worthlessness of women’s sports in general and how all the players are ugly dykes anyway, so who cares? – that needs to be fought the hardest.
For fuck’s sake, a woman can’t excel at anything without incurring negativity from Joe Q. Public and reinforced messages on how she doesn’t really count anyway. And yet people are surprised when women get fed up with that attitude? Pffft.
sbg(Quote) (Reply)
tch, tell them if they like sexism so much, they should go live in the 50s. Oh No turns out the 50s is shit cos it doesn’t have computer games. TOUGH, YOU HAVE TO LIVE IN THE 50s NOW ARSEHOLES! yeah! (if time travel was invented, that is)
Jen(Quote) (Reply)
Wuuut? Am I missing something major here? What does it “prove” when someone offers you some information, and you respond by indicating that you’d be interested in learning more? I get that there was theoretically some sort of clever trap being deployed, here, but I can’t figure out what it was even supposed to be.
Revena(Quote) (Reply)
I haven’t been able to figure it out either using common earth logic. My best guess is they expected to hear back with an affirmative yes, please, complete with bashing of the administrator and any other little thing they could show as being man-hatin’.
sbg(Quote) (Reply)
What SBG said. Plus, they’d gloat I had fallen for a trick, ha ha.
It wouldn’t have impressed anyone else in the world, Revena, but social groups like that have very low standards for their own alleged intelligence and righteousness.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Good on you for not getting sucked into their bullshit, but I do wonder why the smilies in the messages, particularly the last one. What you’re saying to them isn’t a joke.
Trix(Quote) (Reply)
It’s a good thing I can type a response with my fingers here instead of talk because my jaw is on the floor! W. T. F?!!!
My response to that dude’s first offer wouldn’t even have been so kind as yours. I’m thinking something like “prove it or GTFO”. I’m sure you’ve saved up all their emails, and I’d even suggest getting screenshots of the original forum posts, just in case. (Better to have the ammo on hand and not need it than the other way around, right?)
And now I’m laughing my ass off at the sheer ridonkulousness of those doodz. LOL! What did they think they’d achieve anyway? XD
Aconite(Quote) (Reply)
What the…? What are those guys? 12 or something? That ‘plan’ sounds like some “Let’s trick the girls into saying something stupid, durrhurr” bullshit you would pull in middle school. lol
In all seriousness, I just read up about the whole SC2 thing. My gosh, I suppose I can consider myself lucky with my gaming experiences. When I started gaming online I found a super nice guild. For most of the time I was the only girl there. Sure, there have certainly also been a few sexist undertones in some jokes and flirty comments. But it was all – thank goodness – rather of the tame and friendly kind. Sadly, after a few years we all drifted apart (different games, interference with real life and all that). I really miss those times.
I start to wonder if this harassment has something to do with the kind of games?
Lots of these ‘problematic for females’ games are targeted to male gamers and are very competitive. Either it’s the gameplay itself or some achievements. And then I start thinking that maybe that “You lost to a girl!” stigma has something to do with it. That the more competitive a game is the more ego-driven it is and the more guys are seeing girls as as potential threat. That while it may already be bad enough if they are loosing to another guy it’s at least this fight ritual thing so they can still feel manly. But but loosing to a girl somehow crushes their ego entirely and they compensate this with being a sexist asshole. That if a woman dares to be better than a man she must be [insert sexist slur of choice here] and deserves to be treated like shit. Of course not all guys are like this. But I’m pretty sure those who are are those that were raised with and have internalized this “You must be better than a girl!” agenda.
Sabrina(Quote) (Reply)
Wow, that’s terrifying, and sort of sad.
It’s like they care enough to try a fairly convoluted plan to discredit you when you pointed it out, but not enough to do anything about it on their own site…
I. Scott(Quote) (Reply)
The first smiley was where I was trying to appear enthusiastic for the plant, remember?
The second was a wink, which is a very condescending smiley, not a jokey smiley.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Exactly. I suspect at NO POINT in this whole mess does it ever occur to them they might be wrong.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Have you taken a look at the forums on that site?
The culture they have over there is… Well, let’s just say I don’t think the mods there are very likely to be feeling ashamed at being exposed as sexist. Highly amused seems more likely.
Dom Camus(Quote) (Reply)
I read a comment where a user said he expected a player to reap a lot of opponents – and he proactively explained that yes, he meant like the Grim Reaper, it was not a misspelling of rape. Before anyone asked.
The Other Patrick(Quote) (Reply)
That’s the general culture of online gaming. And Hollywood. And pretty much every part of the entertainment industry we cover.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
I’m curious about your use of the term “boyz.” Is this something Team Liquid regulars use to describe themselves?
(Honestly, it just makes me think of the Orks from Warhammer 40,000, but Orks are much better-natured.)
Patrick McGraw(Quote) (Reply)
Nope. I’m using it to denote immaturity.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
You mean “may not be committed”, right?
I was wondering about this. I came across a much milder version of sexism on a parkour forum in Canada (Vancouver). When I called someone out on a homophobic comment he made, I was told, to my shock, that they allow people to make sexist and homophobic comments, because it’s “nicer” than moderating them. I told them that I was pretty sure it was illegal, but didn’t pursue it. I just left the forum. (Very few women in that community – it’s mostly males 15-25.)
The law here (in Vancouver, but I assume it’s more or less the same across Canada – it goes by province) is that if you are offering a business or service to the general public, you cannot allow homophobia or sexual harassment. The question for me in my situation was: how do I file a claim against an online forum, because you need a name and a street address (I didn’t know about WhoIs back then). And does this forum fall under the heading of “offering a service to the public”? I think it did, because it was the go-to place for parkour in BC, and set itself up as such. Also, I can’t file a complaint about homophobic slurs since I’m not gay, but I can file a complaint about sexist jokes since I’m female. (Another limitation: both business and plaintiff need to be in the same province, because the legislation is provincial. There’s a separate federal tribunal for some exceptions, like banks, airlines, the post office etc.) I’ve never heard of an online forum being sued, but surely it must be possible when it’s part of a larger entity like a business or community group. It seems to me to be necessary. And in my case these were people I actually met offline, since the forum was set up to organize get-togethers.
It is relatively easy to file a claim here, but I don’t know about how it works in the US. I’m pretty sure that all countries are supposed to have legislation protecting the UN list of human rights, so the US is supposed to have something that works. And it it truly doesn’t, this is something the government would need to address.
A good lawsuit would shape people up. Shame if it’s really not possible in the US at this time.
Anemone(Quote) (Reply)
Seriously?! That’s ridiculous on so many levels!
(How do they test for gayness when they receive a complaint anyway? Is a Star-Trek style scanner that says “Gayness detected!”?)
Dom Camus(Quote) (Reply)
Legally, I can only file a complaint with the human rights tribunal on my own behalf or on the behalf of people who have given me written authorization. I am not legally authorized to speak on behalf of gays. (And I’m obviously not gay because I’m female. They’d catch that if it ever got to a hearing.) If gays care they’re supposed to do it themselves. (Though I don’t know how many young gays know their legal rights. Or young anybody for that matter. I looked it up when I was researching sexual harassment in my early 40s.)
I can always file in the categories of sex and disability, though, if I need to (and have, not always successfully).
Anemone(Quote) (Reply)
I believe that in most areas, lesbians still count as gay (the law refers to homosexual rather than gay or lesbian), so unless they were going to follow up on your sex life, they can’t prove that you don’t fall under that law.
DragonLord(Quote) (Reply)
The comment was “f*ggy” (don’t know if this will get through), which doesn’t apply to lesbians as far as I know. But even if it did I still wouldn’t count (though I could be a witness), and I’m not going to perjure myself for a cause.
My concern is that if being gay is bad, then being female is even worse, so homophobic slurs are also indirect slurs against women. But the law here doesn’t see it that way, and it’s the letter of the law that counts when it comes to court cases. The sexist comments that they allowed weren’t as clear-cut. Not like that gaming forum. Clear case of sexual harassment there.
Anemone(Quote) (Reply)
Actually, though, I should point out: I’ve deleted a LOT of comments from TL posters who feel entitled to have their side of the story (which seems to be that women really ARE shits, so there!!1!) on this site. Also some angry comments. But no amused comments at all.
So, I must’ve hit it pretty close to the mark to get ‘em all riled up like this.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
No, I meant that in the US, there’s no such thing as hate crimes against women, because women aren’t recognized as a group needing hate crime protection. Anything you do to women is just, er, normal crime. Does that make more sense?
In the US, there’s no set place to file a complaint. For example, sexual harassment at work. You could try talking to your company first, then complain to the EEOC, who will take forever and probably not do anything (in the meantime you’ll have been fired on some trumped-up charge and now be jobless without entitlement to unemployment benefits, in most states), or you could attempt to sue… but many of our judges wouldn’t understand the above article any better than TeamLiquid, so there you go.
Remember, we’re one of those “rugged individualist” (hypocritical as hell) countries founded on the idea that individuals can take care of themselves (but shouldn’t). Accordingly, for example, in most states you are absolutely entitled to kill someone you think is about to rape you (but not allowed to carry any weapon that would actually let you overpower a much stronger attacker). The beauty of the much-vaunted freedom we have in the USA is that we get so many choices (about how we will submit to oppression).
My favorite fairy tale is “The Emperor’s New Clothes.” One of my favorite books is 1984. Go figure.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Anemone, I agree that insults which imply a man’s manliness is damaged imply that being a woman is a bad thing, and therefore are misogynistic slurs despite their male targets.
Something the TL boyz aren’t getting and never will, going by the number of “but they call us fags, so get over it!” comments I’ve had to moderate.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
I guess we’re lucky here with tribunals. Though with the UN declaration of rights and freedoms, all signatories are supposed to provide ready access to legal redress. Tsk tsk.
It’s actually more complicated with forums, though. I looked it up: the servers are in Texas, but the site owners are in the Netherlands. I have no idea whose jurisdiction this situation is in. I wonder if anyone does.
Anemone(Quote) (Reply)
Well, I’m no lawyer, but it’s my understanding the owner is responsible for following the laws of whatever country he or she lives in, and the host is responsible for complying with law enforcement if a site they host is breaking the host’s country’s laws.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
I like callin’ ‘em the b-b-b-boyz…I don’t know why.
Casey(Quote) (Reply)
Ah, that makes sense.
Patrick McGraw(Quote) (Reply)
Hi there,
I am the admin that contacted you via email. I would like to assure you that despite your assumptions, I do not publish private emails on a public forum.
In addition, this was not a set up, as monion is not a staff member. The reason I contacted you was that you told monion you would love to “take on those guys” if he could verify it.
I offered to give you a platform to discuss the issues on my website. I was surprised that someone who is apparently so passionate about her beliefs would not take the opportunity to talk on a platform many many times the size of this website, and with an audience who you obviously feel could use exposure to educated feminist views.
The conclusion I drew from your refusal to discuss the issue in public and from your writings and the comments on this site is that you are more interested in tabloid writing than actually advancing what you believe in.
This latest article simply reinforces this viewpoint, and that is disappointing.
Best Regards,
Manifesto7
Manifesto7(Quote) (Reply)
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