Only one time have I been actually mystified as to why a friend would ever recommend a book to me. This book was Wizard’s First Rule, by Terry Goodkind. The friend was a girl I was working with at the time; we’d both discovered we had a mutual love for fantasy novels. I lent her George R.R. Martin’s A Game of Thrones, and she said I had to read Terry Goodkind’s Sword of Truth series, which were her favorite books. So I grabbed it at a bookstore, hoping for a new set of bookstop fantasy tomes to gobble up.
I’m still mildly scarred from the experience of reading this book, so much that I couldn’t be induced to read it again to refresh my memory of it. So I apologize for any blurring of plot information. I think Goodkind’s writing is illustrative of why many people roll their eyes and steer clear of the fantasy genre. The characters are very stock, and the plot is a Star Wars rip-off.
But what really shocked me about this author (more so because a female friend recommended him to me) was his prevalent, even casual, use of rape. To be fair, we don’t actually see a lot of rape in the first book, the one I read, though from what I’ve heard, it gets worse. There is, however, a gratuitously lengthy and descriptive segment involving sadomasochistic sex and torture. It takes up about 80 pages of the book. I honestly couldn’t get past that, and ended up skimming the rest of the book.
It surprises me how many people, even women, don’t think critically about what makes a good female character. I’ve seen Kahlan, the main female character in the Sword of Truth series, described as a strong female character. I gather this is because she’s important and special and has strong magical powers that cause men to fear her. Kahlan is a Confessor, which basically boils down to her having a magical power that forces people to spill their souls to her and confess the truth. Confessors can’t cut their hair, because… well, this isn’t really made clear other than the vague explanation that their magic won’t let them, but of course, we all know it’s so they will all be hot. And Kahlan can’t have sex with Richard, the male lead, because when she has an orgasm she will lose control of her power and destroy his soul. Yes, this is her main personal conflict throughout the course of the book. She loves Richard but having sex with him will kill him. OH NO! Shock! What will possibly happen? Do you think they’ll ever find a way to get around that one?< /sarcasm> When not being able to have sex with the male main character is your major personal conflict, well, there are problems. It seems like fantasy authors sometimes think, “Well, I gave her really super special magic, so why are you saying she isn’t strong?”
As I’ve said, I stopped after the first book, but from what I’ve read in reviews, Kahlan experiences nine near-rapes in the series to date. And her sister is brutally gang-raped as a plot device. The bad guys engage in pedophilia. You get the idea. I do not have a problem with authors depicting sex, and even violent sexual situations, if these situations and their implications are treated thoughtfully. But this isn’t the case with Goodkind. As I said before, the word that describes it best is gratuitous. The “good” characters” are in love, and so their use of sex is “good.” The “bad” characters are evil, so they rape and sexually torture, or are raped and sexually tortured.
The world of Goodkind is a twisted place.
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This is gonna be rambly, but I’m exploring ideas, so I hope people bear with me. ^^;
Jason said:
I can, off the top of my head, think of two-three rapes in the first book (non-graphic) and at least one close call, one offscreen and one onscreen (graphic) near-rape in the second, and then… yeah. Graphic onscreen mass rapes. I really don’t know how you missed them. I really, really don’t. Heck, the idea behind the Confessor killing squads, flat out, is ’4 men, one woman, if the men win, the woman is raped to death.’ Rape to show that the enemy is evil within the first bit of the book!
Something that hasn’t come up yet is dealing with the problem buried in the defense that ‘there are some strong women in the series.’ The problem with ‘well, there are some strong women!’ is that, for example, Shota is an exception, not the rule (she also displays a strong streak of jealousy of a sort in the first book, reinforcing the concept briefly that powerful women keep other women down.)
The rule is that women magicians are weaker than men. Although some are very intelligent/wise, or strong, the magical hierarchy is explicitly light side women If his descriptions of what happen to people who surrender to the Order are graphic, it could be because of Goodkind’s personal distaste for people who would rather choose to be a slave or a victim rather than to fight for their own rights.
Consider that most of the people, especially women, described in these scenarios, _have no power_. And when they do fight, they get smacked around, and THEN raped. He _introduced an entire village of people_ and a first person PoV character, only to have her watch that village be killed and the women raped (a middleish book, I can’t remember which one.) (In fact, the more pretty a woman was, the more times she was raped, explicitly, tying slightly into the belief that ‘rape is about women being sexy’. Bronze/Silver/Gold rings?) That, right there, is a key example of exactly what makes me go, ‘… wait, what? What? How many times do you need to have the rapists rape from a female PoV before you think we get it? I feel ill.’ Having anyone who doesn’t immediately fight the Order be raped, _AND_ having people who DO immediately fight the Order be raped… well, uh, where’s the moral message there, except that ‘Evil people rape, let’s watch.’
Ultimately, I think others have dealt with a lot of the issues and concepts in the abstract, but as a reader, I can come a bit more in on the details of how the books read, and how they _reinforce_ a negative perception. Also, they really do develop into having a significant amount of rape, to the point where they bothered a _18 year old me_ who had no real frame to put such things in, due to my situation and privilege. That’s pretty damn significant.
I won’t deny I enjoyed the books when I originally read them, and still think of a number of the characters positively (I do like Kahlan and Cara, and a few of the situations do appeal to me for psychological reasons I won’t get into). Like Ifritah, I have a love/hate relationship with the books, as my previous teenage enjoyment is twisted with the knowledge I’ve earned over the years, due to technical and other flaws in his writing, including these.
I still have Pillars of Creation sitting in my house, unread, and I don’t think I’ll ever get to it. I’m sort of scared of what would be in it.
-Mecha
Mecha(Quote) (Reply)
(Ack, sorry, angle brackets completely blew the first post. Beta, please delete?)
This is gonna be rambly, but I’m exploring ideas, so I hope people bear with me. ^^;
Jason said:
I can, off the top of my head, think of two-three rapes in the first book (non-graphic) and at least one close call, one offscreen and one onscreen (graphic) near-rape in the second, and then… yeah. Graphic onscreen mass rapes. I really don’t know how you missed them. I really, really don’t. Heck, the idea behind the Confessor killing squads, flat out, is ’4 men, one woman, if the men win, the woman is raped to death.’ Rape to show that the enemy is evil within the first bit of the book!
Something that hasn’t come up yet is dealing with the problem buried in the defense that ‘there are some strong women in the series.’ The problem with ‘well, there are some strong women!’ is that, for example, Shota is an exception, not the rule (she also displays a strong streak of jealousy of a sort in the first book, reinforcing the concept briefly that powerful women keep other women down.)
The rule is that women magicians are weaker than men. Although some are very intelligent/wise, or strong, the magical hierarchy is explicitly light side women weaker than light side men weaker than dark side women weaker than dark side men (weaker than the Main Character, who is dark side without having to do evil unlike everyone else), to the point where the strongest society of ‘good’ women mages capture, enslave with collars, and then train the men to be good wizards. There is a strong parallel there to society, and essentialism, and how women are perceived to ‘train’ men, and so on. (It is not treated as a ‘good thing’ by the main characters, of course, but by not being a ‘good thing’ what the arguments actually are is that ‘Men should train men, and you women should screw the hell off.’) Some of the powerful women (Sisters of the Dark) you describe are also raped in later books by the new Big Bad, to show how awesome and invincible he is, and then sent off to do things for him. (They also have to have sex with demons in an incredibly painful and graphic way to get their powers, and have to drain/kill men to do it IIRC. The only independent female power in the world is Shota, and she is not a good person/model.)
The Mord Sith are strong (and I like a lot of them at times), but they are all massively emotionally damaged by, oddly enough, rape. The first two we meet are a cold sadistic man-hating killer, and a efficient but ultimately soft-hearted (heart of gold) type (wherein rape eventually turns into love.) And they both exist as plot devices to essentially teach Richard a lesson, and die within the first book. Later Mord Sith break that, to a point, but they all continue to link female power to sex and emotional trauma. They were also created by a rapist and serve a man (his son) (even if the main character Richard does not agree with that wholesale.) This can go a lot of ways, depending on the person. I really can’t say. But there’s a lot of ugly bits there.
And along those lines, while I do love Kahlan, who is strong, and a leader, the Confessors’ power is once again explicitly tied to sex, and comes from the powerful old men who created them (again, Slayer parellels). If the Confessor enjoys any act of sex too much then they destroy their lover (unless it’s Tru Wuv.) The power’s release is orgasmic (but it tires them out, unless they’re in a love-based revenge rage, at which point, rapid fire org–er, power usage.) There’s a pretty strong message in the construction of that power. Negative/positive? Not so sure. But there’s a lot of ugly bits there. (And the fact that there’s no defense against Confessors’ semi-orgasmic mind-controlling powers, in that metaphor, sorta points at the annoying idea that women completely control people, especially men, through sex. And don’t let me get started on the messages that the Confessor having to use her power on one of the men who comes to rape her might send, because this idle analysis is long enough as is.)
The ultimate construction of women in the book, then, with regards to sexuality, seems to come out ‘Only if you really love them, otherwise you’ll be raped, or destroy them, or you’re evil, or…’ anyway, you get the point. (Consider the sequence at the end of Temple of the Winds: Consequences of having sex for fun.)
As to his ethical message, it’s generally Objectivism (especially in Faith of the Fallen) and Objectivism and Feminism have a somewhat conflicting past and ethic. There are strong tones of essentialism in Objectivism, even while saying that people are equal. But such an analysis is a bit beyond this, maybe. On another ‘ethical’ note…
Consider that most of the people, especially women, described in these scenarios, _have no power_. And when they do fight, they get smacked around, and THEN raped. He _introduced an entire village of people_ and a first person PoV character, only to have her watch that village be killed and the women raped (a middleish book, I can’t remember which one.) (In fact, the more pretty a woman was, the more times she was raped, explicitly, tying slightly into the belief that ‘rape is about women being sexy’. Bronze/Silver/Gold rings?) That, right there, is a key example of exactly what makes me go, ‘… wait, what? What? How many times do you need to have the rapists rape from a female PoV before you think we get it? I feel ill.’ Having anyone who doesn’t immediately fight the Order be raped, _AND_ having people who DO immediately fight the Order be raped… well, uh, where’s the moral message there, except that ‘Evil people rape, let’s watch.’
Ultimately, I think others have dealt with a lot of the issues and concepts in the abstract, but as a reader, I can come a bit more in on the details of how the books read, and how they _reinforce_ a negative perception. Also, they really do develop into having a significant amount of rape, to the point where they bothered a _18 year old me_ who had no real frame to put such things in, due to my situation and privilege. That’s pretty damn significant.
I won’t deny I enjoyed the books when I originally read them, and still think of a number of the characters positively (I do like Kahlan and Cara, and a few of the situations do appeal to me for psychological reasons I won’t get into). Like Ifritah, I have a love/hate relationship with the books, as my previous teenage enjoyment is twisted with the knowledge I’ve earned over the years, due to technical and other flaws in his writing, including these.
I still have Pillars of Creation sitting in my house, unread, and I don’t think I’ll ever get to it. I’m sort of scared of what would be in it.
-Mecha
Mecha(Quote) (Reply)
Wow. I had to stop reading these posts at one point, so if I’m just repeating someone else I do apologize.
I am a female, and I have loved all the books for the Sword of Truth series. To be honest, the first book was about the most difficult for me to get through. Started off a bit slowly for me, and yes when the Dominatrix chick came into play, it moved a bit slower. But in every other book they come back to that, and what the experience taught to the main character Richard.
As far as the pedophilia goes, there is never any open writing describing this. You learn that the 2nd hand man to Darken Rahl, is a sick bastard and has been rumored to take part in such things. When the young boy mentioned in the book is used in the Dark Magic Ritual, it was highly important that he not be violated in such a way, he was to be pure and innocent. I’m not justifying the fact that the boy was used in sacrifice, just pointing out that such acts were only mentioned as rumor or in past tense.
There was other mention yes of what happened to little girls after dharan soldiers came through, or in later books when the Order comes through the town. And yes there is a lot of rape mentioned through out all the stories. I had come to believe after a while that Terry Goodkind must really hate men. Every other male character in the stories seemed all about it. But, there are so so many of the situations that lead to the woman (or should I just say Kahlan) escaping it.
I took absolutely no offense to these scenes being in the story. Like all women it is a frightening thought for me, but when I try to get irritated with his constant mention of it, I remember there’s a reason why women fear it so much, cause it’s real and it does happen too much as is.
The stories continue on with it, because he is telling you of men who live under a belief that is dangerous to everyone. That there is no point in being good and decent in this life, so why bother. Not too far off from teaching people they came from monkeys then wondering why they behave like animals. The main characters of these stories, the “heroes” so to speak are the ones setting out to stop such men.
Sometimes the stories drag, sometimes they get quite brutal and bloody. To the guy who hasn’t read Pillars of Creation. It’s a good book, taken from completely different perspectives than any of the other stories go. Lots of deaths, some mentions of rapes and brutalities. But in the end I enjoyed it.
Bottom line, some people will enjoy these books, some people won’t. If you want to go and play a feminist and take offense because women have to sell themselves to the keeper to attain a wizards’ powers, than you might want to just not bother with these stories. If you think the Confessor must wear their hair long cause it keeps them hot, then you missed all the points to womens’ hair lengths are a showing of stature and even kings and queens must bow before the Mother Confessor.
So many points I’d love to address honestly, like Kahlan doesn’t just fall for Richard cause he’s the main character. That would confirm Goodkind being a bad writer. No, the whole point of it, is that he is the first person she’s ever met that didn’t know who or what she was. That didn’t pick up on the white dress and the length of the hair. Because he wasn’t afraid of her like every other character introduced from the Midlands is. Because it was her first oppurtunity to ever behave as if she was something normal. And because when he found out the truth, he still accepted her.
I really need to stop because I could go on for a very long time over what I’ve read in all these posts. But really though, if you’re open minded and can take graphic scenes in your reading, definately give these books a try.
Spalli(Quote) (Reply)
Here I was thinking “Finally, someone who can express a different opinion without resorting to name-calling” until:
That’s rude, don’t you think? I mean, first of all no one here is “playing a feminist” – we are feminists. And your tone implies that there’s something wrong with being a feminist. You think you’re entitled to imply that on a feminist site? Get a clue.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
I do apologize. I just went back through my own posting and saw that, and now realize I should have worded that very much so differently. I did not mean to offend, and if I have than I am sorry.
Personally, I view it as, the “place” of the woman in these stories, isn’t far off from most stories of wizards and magic. They always make reference at one point or another that a womans’ magic is 2nd to a mans’. But in these stories, it has an explanation to back it. As different as a man and a woman are, so is there magic. To go any further on that subject would cause me to start referencing the Bible, so I’ll stop.
Spalli(Quote) (Reply)
Apology accepted. As for the rest of your points:
I think there are two different points of view happening in this thread. One is to question whether the rapes/near-rapes work well in the stories – many people feel they do. But the other is to question why the author chose rape at all. Whatever rape does in a story can always be accomplished by some other depraved, traumatic or wrongful act. (Except when it’s actually a story about rape.)
So it’s possible to say the books are good and the rapes/near-rapes work well in context, and still be concerned about the question of why the author chose rape instead of something else.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
I believe there are a few reasons for why it’s rape in these stories, not some other traumatic issue.
Fear, Dominance and Control. In the stories you learn that all the Confessors, are hunted down by Darken Rahl. That he sends out his Quads of 4 men. The Confessor only has the ability to use her magic against 1 person and hope that it’s enough. If the other 3 men are able to overpower the one man whose been touched by the magic, the Confessor is in for some horrible things. This creates the fear within remaining Confessors.
The land of Dhara, where Darken Rahl resides and where the men of his Quads are raised. Is a land that has long been under the control of the Rahl family. Over generations, a mentality developed within the Rahl men (one that is explained in books like Pillars of Creation and Naked Empire) where those men do not take wives, but simply use women, best way I can put it is as breeders.
Lots of ancient magic discussion later, you learn that each generation of magic wielding Rahls can only produce 1 magic wielding Rahl. So, they kind of go through and try to get just about every woman they can pregnant, and kill off all the babies that don’t have the magic.
Generations of that later, and you get Darken Rahl who views women of little importance. So rape would be nothing to him but a laugh. There you have dominance and control.
Another part in Wizards’ First Rule, when Kahlan and Richard find themselves in a town that has been ransacked, terrorized and burnt. They find a few people still alive, mostly children, and learn that all the girls were raped. This was done by Dharan soldiers disguised as men from Westfall. It was done as an attempt to start war between the Midlands and Westfall, and pull the Midlands into accepting Dharan control, to push out the evil people of Westfall. So yet again with fear and control.
When the Order and Jangang get introduced to the stories. Jangang uses rape as a means of once again showing dominance and control. He takes some of the most powerful wizards, sisters of the dark and the light. Makes the wizards to clean his tents and serve his food, and the incredibly powerful sisters to be nothing more than the entertainment for his soldiers.
When they go through the towns, they make 1 town an example leaving 1 or 2 people alive to run to the next town and warn them all of the horrible things that happened to their home. The rape becomes a huge fear to both the women and the men, and they become likely to surrender to the will of the Order thinking it might keep their women and children safe.
Now as far as wether or not, some other means could’ve been used to demonstrate the seriousness of the bad guys. I really don’t think so. It’s all rape and torture. If you were told someone was gonna shoot you in the head and that’s that, would it scare you as much as if they said they were gonna play with your entrails first.
Spalli(Quote) (Reply)
Rape=fear, dominance, control.
There’s no denying that’s what rapists get off on, and it’s easy and oh-so-simple to do (whip out your dick and your victim’s done).
However, from a writerly perspective, is it always best to choose the easy road for intimidation and control amongst your characters? Does it not become repetitive and boring, not to mention offensive, if, after a while, the Raped portion of your readership (ie, the gender most often raped in your books) starts to twig that there’s something hinky and strange with this kink constantly being used and referenced for all sorts of intimidation within your plot?
The description of all the sexual domination used in The Wheel of Time books in the previous post by Spalli reminds of me badly written, repetitive fanfiction, where the writer only writes characters to be tortured, and readers only read it to be titillated by sexual kinks.
I admit I’ve never read any books from this series, mostly because I’d heard it went on forever and rarely went anywhere, like a wheel spinning in the air.
My main point is, rape seems overused as a plot device in the series, even from what Spalli iterates.
Gategrrl(Quote) (Reply)
It has nothing to do with becoming titilated. More so, that I like many other readers, do not judge the books only by these portions.
I understand that for a lot of people these books are no good. And more so than not, they seem to only want to focus on the content of the books being discussed right now. That at first mention of said acts, turns most readers away. Lots of people become very negative about the stories like that, and misinterpret and/or just misread from there on. I am only trying to appeal from the perspective of someone that read passed all of that and still enjoyed the series.
I really am only trying to get it out there, for the people who will read this forum, that many readers have enjoyed this series, and it doesn’t mean they’re sick or depraved because they did. I can come up with much more disturbing in content stories than these ones, that I wish I had never been recommended to read.
To start off, I think along the lines of, if every writer used the same methods as every other writer, why bother? It’s all only going to be the same.
Also, I’m not trying to say that there wasn’t a lot of rape in the stories. Just the same as I have not come out saying, oh those are my favorite parts. To be honest, the 80 pages of dominatrix was enough that I wanted to just put the book down. But when I continued on with it, and finished, I still was curious to read the next in series. I enjoy the characters, the difference in the world portrayed to you by Terry Goodkind in comparison with so many other fantasy writers.
But, it’s not like Terry Goodkind is the first writer ever to incorporate a rape into his stories. I’ve read plenty of other stories, fantasy and just plain out weird that touched on the subject wether with description or not. Maybe I’ve become desensitized to it, or maybe these books just aren’t meant for some people to finish.
Spalli(Quote) (Reply)
The main reason I never started on the Wheel of Time books wasn’t the inclusion of all the rape (in one form or another), it was something else entirely: I simply couldn’t get past the first few pages, and the situations/characters/plot sounded, when I first looked at the blurbs, an awful lot like every other Big Quest Fantasy series out there.
This is the first place I’ve ever seen point out how much rape figures into the plotting of this series.
I was turned off from the Thomas Covenent series because of the initial rape that happens in the first chapter.
I’m sure there are other fantasy novels that use rape and torture and mental anguish to get the mileage out of the characters and plot: but I don’t think NOT including rape means cookie cutter fantasies, as you seem to imply.
Rape just seems…so damned *uncreative*. And lame. In a novel context.
Gategrrl(Quote) (Reply)
I agree. If you eliminate rape, you actually have to get more creative to come up with the same sense of fear and domination and control. Rape’s such a shortcut standby, it requires no creativity.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
I just picked up this book and have to say that I am enjoying it. I have not finished it, however. Your objection may come from a real problem that I have noted in some science fantasy. In Robert Jordan, who passed away recently, I found the women characters were a type. They were cranky and ruled by their emotions. By the way, I don’t there is a shred of “Star Wars in this book. I don’t know where you got that. If you make such a comment like that back it up with portions of the text. The problem you have may come from erroticism is centered in the male and not the female. Early in the book Kahlan approaches Richard and tries to seduce him. Its a higly charged scene which is oral in its fetish. Science fantasy like science fiction often excludes sex from its matrix. It wishes to establish a utopia where the world we live in may be dissolved away in fantasy. I must admit the level of sexual sadism in scenes with the Darken Rahl with Carl are difficult to read. They made me sick. But good writing should disturb now and then
David(Quote) (Reply)
Wow. I can already see two errors with this statement. The first, is that you can deny, and should, that all rape is about fear, dominance, and control. Having had a lot of discussions with the inmates where I work, the majority of their rapes were because they just wanted to get off.
Second, is that stupid ‘whip your dick out’ part. Would you please, please, please, get over the idiotic concept that all rapists are male? Since so many people want to fling the word around, “statistically” most rapists are female, especially from the viewpoint of this and other sites definition of rape? I’ve known many men that I’ve “pressured” into sex by wearing revealing outfits and asking repeatedly… if I put on my leathers and head to a bar for a good time, I’m getting some, period, and I -will- find someone that I can get to have sex with me… so I’m a rapist, too.
“Mental rape” is much, much worse than “physical rape”. As far as the book is concerned, the lead female character is the greatest monster in the book. Especially since they have a habit of doing it to men they purport to love, and do it anyway, knowing what they’re doing / going to do. The dominatrix girls (the Mord Sith) murdered, brutalized, raped, and tortured thousands of men, and this torture is much worse than a female character being raped a second before she’s killed.
My biggest concern as these stories go on is that Goodkind takes a deliberate bend toward anti-Communism statements (Faith of the Fallen), social commentary (Stone of Tears), and just flat out preaching. Khalan and Richard are terrible characters, completely one-sided and exist only to be a socially-acceptable source for outpouring Goodkind’s viewpoints. I think, more than anything else, that’s why there’s so much rape and mass murder: anyone that fights a force so evil, so destructive, and so social unacceptable, must have correct viewpoints and needs to listened to. That’s the real problem with his writing, in my opinion.
KS
KitsuneSoup(Quote) (Reply)
Trigger Warning from BetaCandy: I’m letting this comment stand because Purtek had a nice response, but it more or less dismisses the idea that women who have been raped know what real suffering – male suffering – is. *yawn-hearditallbefore*
KitsuneSoup, you misunderstand the definition of rape rather radically in your comment. Putting on a sexy outfit and deciding that you are going to find *someone* who will have sex with you, even if it takes some effort, is NOT the same thing as deciding that a specific individual is going to have sex with you, whether s/he likes it or not. Wearing a revealing outfit is not the same as “pressuring” a man into sex. There’s a vast, qualititative difference between getting someone interested in sex and cajoling, pressuring or coercing them to the point that they don’t have the energy to say “no” anymore, so even though they’re NOT interested, they have sex anyway. One is seduction, one is rape.
It is decidedly not an idiotic notition to suggest that most rapists are men. Please also understand that your comment is very, very inflammatory to women (like myself) who have spent any time at all working with survivors of sexual violence. I have no idea where one would find any statistics that make anything close to the argument you are making here, which is actually awfully close to victim blaming in a lot of ways.
I am also not clear on why one would take a (potentially unrepetant?) rapist’s word on exactly why he rapes someone. In my experience, people who think actions like that are justified are not exactly the most aware of the complexities of what they’re thinking, and digging a little deeper, you might find they “get off” on…power and control.
Purtek(Quote) (Reply)
Nope. I was trying to take your comment as non-trolling, but you totally cross a line when you describe someone’s weak will in the face of sexual pressure as rape. Either you are beyond not getting it, or you’re just posting here to cause a fuss.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Sorry Betacandy–I appreciate the addition of trigger warnings. I thought there was a chance there was room for discussion here, but I knew it was a risk.
Purtek(Quote) (Reply)
No problem. I felt pretty homicidal reading the bit about mental rape (get the feeling our poster thinks only women engage in that?), so I figured there was no telling how it might affect others.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
“Luke, I am your father.”
?
DuruAntilles(Quote) (Reply)
That is not from “Wizards First.” And what kind of critic quits the book and then writes one of the most hyper sensitive reviews I have ever read. Everyone is talking about rape and how bad the character are. I think you guys are writing about a different book.
David(Quote) (Reply)
I thought, overall, the writing was cliched. Having felt this way throughout most of the book, my opinion was reaffirmed upon arriving at the end and discovering, in yet another cliche used to famous effect in the Star Wars trilogy, that Rahl was Richard’s father. I thought the connection was rather obvious, but maybe that’s because I’m a huge Star Wars fan. But I can use direct quotes, that’s cool.
And just as an added bonus… more of that rape everyone’s talking about! This thread is 50 comments long. I’m not sure this is the appropriate time to jump into the conversation and be dismissive of what others have been discussing for what amounts to several pages.
DuruAntilles(Quote) (Reply)
David, don’t try to play the over-sensitive card. It just forces me to point out that you’re the one spending time responding to this review instead of just dismissing us as silly idiots and moving along.
Why is that, I wonder? Got a niggling feeling we’re right?
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
I consider myself to be a good person that enjoys an open dialog. This page is very one sided. You have no legs to stand on this when you confess that you have not read this book from cover to cover.
I am not “playing a card”. Unlike you, I am taking the time to read the whole book before I pass the final word. You do not understand these characters.
Do pass your feminism off as something good for women and men when you clearly are adding to the acrimony that has been started by stupid men who are afraid of loving women.
Also do make assumptions about men simply because they have a penis.
There are some folks posting here that treat men almost as badly as men have treated women. Not all men are corrupt and treat woman. Not all men have rape fantasy in their heads.
Its sad that pages like these want to represent the interest of women by building more fences.
As one man to woman I offer my love and friendship in the hopes we can talk about the book “The Wizards First Rule” and not “The Wizards First Rule: all men are rapists and cannot be trusted.”
I wish you all peace.
David(Quote) (Reply)
This is far from a one-sided thread. There are male and female posters agreeing in part or whole with Duru. There are male and female posters disagreeing. There are people whom… I can’t tell if they agree or disagree, because they almost talk about a totally separate aspect of the book, but that’s cool, too.
I’m not objecting to your points – I leave that to those who’ve read the book and see it differently – I’m objecting to you calling the review(er) hypersensitive. That is most frequently a term of dismissal from people who don’t have to worry about a certain thing to people who do. Even if you don’t mean it that way, it’s just not a good place to go.
So make your points about the book: just don’t try to classify the posters against whom you’re arguing, and we’ll in turn refrain from speculating about your motives for commenting. (That, in case it was missed, was the point of my tongue in cheek joke about why you were here.)
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
The reviewer claims its a rip off of Star Wars. In truth, Luke is a love child, Richard the offspring of a brutal crime against the daughter of Zed in the story. If Goodkind is ripping off anyone it is more like the King Arthur legend. If you read in Morte D’Arthur by Mallory, Arthur is the seed of Uther Pendragon, who rapes Igraine, wife of the Duke of Cornwall. Uther strikes a deal with Merlin the wizard to transform him into the likeness of the Duke so he may have one night with Igraine.
In the Greek myth Persehpone is abuducted into the neather world and rapid.
There are lots of classic stories that fit Goodkinds plot. But NOT STARWARS!
In Star Wars Anakin Skywalker fathers Twins after marrying Padme. As you can see this is not the same plot line at all. In the Star Wars there is no rape.
I have been offended by how poorly this reviewer did on describing a book that was never fully read before posting this. It means nothing to me that men post here. I am a feminist because I love and respect women for who they are as individuals.
This was a novel. And it was well written. Its true that I was sick when Kahlan was assaulted. It offended my sensibilities. But if you go back to that chapter you will find she deals with that nicely.
Good luck to you all.
Peace.
David(Quote) (Reply)
Um, seriously, David? You said above that this was “one of the most hyper-sensitive reviews you’ve ever read” because “everyone is talking about rape”–this is something that all of the authors on this site agree is a topic that needs to be handled sensitively in media and that we have good reason to be pretty damn pissed off about in general. You say Kahlen dealt with the assault “nicely”, but you don’t argue as to what that means to you, you just imply it’s not worth talking about.
But then this last comment seems to get very sensitive about the lack of relationship between this plot and Star Wars…which strikes me as not really a very sensitive issue. Duru said in her first post that she read the first book, but not the remainder of the series, not that she didn’t finish the novel. If someone writing a negative critique of a book you liked seriously “offends” you, but you want to use terms like “hypersensitive” when we’re talking about rape…well, just don’t be surprised if we find that frustrating.
Purtek(Quote) (Reply)
Kahaln is not raped in the first book. She is assaulted by a group of thugs. She then murders two of the men that attacked her and forces the head of that group to eat his balls.
To suggest that Goodkind is not sensible to the horror of rape is to completely misrepresent his writings. He has complete respect for his female characters. They represent woman who are strong and independent. They are empowered with a sense of there own talents and do not sit down and play the victim willingly.
I am put off by the pseudo representation of complete and realistic feminism on this page. Feminism is not just about hating men that are thugs.
By the way I completed the book last night and intend to continue with the next in the series. Please do not twist my words around to suggest that I am a typical male who “is not sensitive enough” on the issue of rape.
Two years ago my cousin Debbera was raped and I wanted to kill the guy who did it to her. You guys are lame. You miss represent the words of anyone who argues against the reviewer and pull the classic move of “I know you are, but what am I?” NICE. Grow up guys.
Forget it. You have lost the argument. Go away before you embarrass yourself more.
Peace
David(Quote) (Reply)
If it pleases the other posters I apologize for calling the reviewer “Hyper-sensitive”. That was a bit tacky on my part, and NOT the best karma. Please forgive me. I truely meant no offense. I just found the article misrepresents the books.
By the way. Her friend who got the George Martin novel got the better end of the deal. I am a huge fan of Martins books. They seem even more like historical fiction than science fantasy.
I just want folks here to know I am not trolling for a fight.
Peace
David(Quote) (Reply)
and
Calling people “lame”? Telling us to grow up when you switch tones every two sentences, much like a group of jackasses bored at work, standing around going, “Oh, dude, type this!” as you construct a post meant to wind us up?
Since I can’t moderate just one of your multiple personalities, I’m afraid I’ll have to put them all on moderation, David.
Oh, yeah. Peace.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
What do people think of the fact that only women can become confessors and mord-sith? In my opinion, it says something about Goodkind’s view of men and women.
Anything ugly becomes much more so with the knowledge that it was once something beautiful. In Tolkein’s work it is orcs. In Goodkind’s it is mord-sith: once the most caring girls in D’hara, tortured out of spirit and compassion. The knowledge of this destruction brings great pain to Richard and ideally the reader. The fact that only girls can be made into mord-sith implies that they are more capable of caring than their male counterparts, more beautiful. I’d say that’s a good thing; whether or not its essentialist I don’t know.
Then there is the fact that males could not be confessors. When given complete control over sex, these men took full advantage of it. They used their gift on women and instructed them to have sex with them, later disposing of the victims. It is for this reason that only women can become confessors; men cannot be trusted with it. This implies nothing good about the male gender.
These things do show a stereotypical view of women (sweet, innocent) and a dangerous view of men (see: burqua) but these views are also countered in the books with the strong female characters and the many male characters who are capable of controlling themselves around women. And yes, in my opinion the female characters are strong. Just because women cannot achieve quite as much power in the Gift as men does not mean that women are inferior to men. After all, the fastest female olympic runner is slower than the fastest male olympic runner.
nadie(Quote) (Reply)
It IS essentialist, very much so. As is the implication “men cannot be trusted with it.” Furthermore, I think it’s a dangerous stereotype because it conditions our society – including law enforcement personnel, judges and lawyers – not to believe a woman could abuse the hell out of someone, or torture her son so he becomes an abuser, when in fact women do these things and perpetuate the overall cycle of abuse, brutality and general ugliness.
And the stereotype that men just can’t control themselves around women… well, that one’s well-loved by a lot of real life rapists and their defense attorneys – and unfortunately, judges and jurors, too. And it’s a discredit to all the men who don’t go around raping or otherwise harming people because they know it’s wrong and have self-discipline.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
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