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The blockbuster mentality and the invisible audience

by Jennifer Kesler on March 25, 2009

iStock_000010133336XSmallMelissa Silverstein of Women And Hollywood recently wrote a piece for Women’s Media Center called Pondering the Chick Flick. It’s a great read that explores the history of the chick flick up to now, describes the frustrating dichotomy in which “chick flicks” often promote women filmmakers (yay!) while encouraging regressive sexist values (boo!), and suggests thinking beyond the labels.

One particular part of Melissa’s post struck a chord with me, and I want to expand on it just a bit:

Fast-forward to the late 70s and early 80s when feminism was saturating the cultural landscape of the country and, for a brief moment, also penetrating Hollywood as women moved into powerful positions behind the scenes.  The films of that period show some of the strongest, most feminist women ever seen onscreen and displayed the depth and range of the rising female consciousness.  These films—including Julia, Norma Rae, An Unmarried Woman, Silkwood, 9 to 5, My Brilliant Career, Yentl, Places in the Heart, Out of Africa, The Color Purple, Children of a Lesser God, Desert Hearts— relayed women’s stories as important and valid to the culture and often appealed to men as well.  But just like the women’s film flamed out, by the late 1980s, feminist films began to disappear as the blockbuster mentality grew in combination with the “backlash” documented by Susan Faludi.  Since that time women have slowly and steadily been losing clout onscreen in a disturbing way that belies their behind-the-scenes power positions.

We’ve discussed before on this site about how women are not slowly making progress in film and TV but are, in fact, merely recovering ground we lost in recent years. Melissa offers the “blockbuster mentality” and the “backlash” Susan Falludi wrote about as an explanation for why that’s happening. This is absolutely correct. As far as the backlash goes, you really need to read Susan Falludi’s Backlash: The Undeclared War Against American Women if you haven’t already. Falludi is one of those rare writers who can distill history into a simple chain of actions, consequences, reactions and more consequences, and in this book, she documents how a few powerful people deliberately attacked the gains made by women through the early 80s with a campaign of media spin, fear mongering, and outright lies. I’d love to try to sum up the book for you, but I can’t. It really has to be read.

The blockbuster mentality, however, is something I was thinking about just last week.The film industry used to be run by filmmakers who’d been promoted from within. At some point in the late 70s or early 80s, these folks started getting replaced en masse by people who had MBAs and business experience but no particular love for nor understanding of films. Film hadn’t been doing so well in terms of profiting (neither had anything else – look up the late 70s and early 80s sometime), and this was cited as a reason for change.

The people who came in quickly diagnosed the “problem” – those silly filmmakers wanted to make artsy-fartsy stuff the audience was too stupid to understand. Only MBAs really understood the audience and just how dull-witted a collection of Homer Simpsons it was. The MBAs immediately set about impressing themselves with their own fabulous reports and demographics and spreadsheets, and engaging in ferocious dick-measuring contests anytime two or more of them wound up in a room or on a conference call together. I can say that without fear of being sexist, because there was nary a woman in sight.

It was also around this time that the new breed of film executives allegedly “figured out” something no one has ever found a shred of evidence to back up: that the best audience is white teenage boys. Hey, go figure! Was it just a coincidence that as soon as film got taken over by a group containing more than its fair share of emotionally stunted man-boys who functioned at a pre-teen mentality, they suddenly discovered that movies really should only be made for teenage boys? Probably not. We humans are not as objective as we like to think. Spreadsheets and computers give us the delusion that we’re not steering the Ouija planchette when we put our hands on it, but the irony here is just delicious: early film executives guessed what the audience wanted, based on their own desires, because they loved movies just like the audience did. The MBAs thought they could totally take their own desires out of the equation and be perfectly objective, but in reality, they just projected themselves into the audience so hard that all the people who weren’t teenage boys stopped existing for them. At least the early filmmakers understood that women shopped with real money and stuff. It takes a very special kind of brain warp to lose sight of a fact like that while making six movies a year about women shopping.

{ 51 comments… read them below or add one }

1
MaggieCat (like) (flag)
March 26, 2009 at 12:17 am

but the irony here is just delicious: early film executives guessed what the audience wanted, based on their own desires, because they loved movies just like the audience did.

Just last night, I was watching a 30 min documentary about Chuck Jones’ childhood and how he got into the cartoon business, and this very sentiment was one of the things that lodged in my brain the most strongly — that during the early years of Merrie Melodies they had no idea if the audiences would find the shorts that funny, they were just trying to make each other laugh. Which is why so much of it holds up so well.

Since Jones’ work is in that pantheon that probably comes the closest to being universally beloved as is possible, that makes it really absurd that people currently producing most television/film seem to have forgotten that point.

(Also entertaining is the fact that I’d already thought of that documentary in connection with THL, since I noticed in the credits that it was funded by Women Make Movies. How very random.)

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Melissa Silverstein (like) (flag)
March 26, 2009 at 7:59 am

Jennifer-

What a great and thoughtful piece. I’ve been thinking about the bush years as the 2nd backlash years. I wonder when we look back at the films that were released and put into production in the bush years will say about our culture. Might be something to think about.

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Jennifer Kesler (like) (flag)
March 26, 2009 at 8:40 am

Maggie, that’s some coincidence, LOL. And it is a perfect example of the instinctive choices that made the industry what it was. We’re sort of told to believe film was on the verge of collapse because of these instinctive choices before the suits swept in and fixed everything, but I don’t think the evidence really supports that. Nor do I think movies are, on the whole, more profitable than they used to be.

Melissa, thank you. Yes, much of what happened under the Bush administration made me think of Falludi’s chapters on the Reagan administration. Her book, Terror Dreams, uses the post 9/11 trauma to look at how our society constructs manhood, and how we must all conform to the so-called “natural” behaviors of our respective genders which, you know, we have to be reminded of constantly despite the “fact” they’re hard-wired. ;)

Film seemed bent on reinforcing this “natural order” more than usual during these years. And I still want to know what the administration said when it made a big trip to Hollywood to speak to film people first thing after 9/11. Supposedly, they needed the expertise of screenwriters to figure out what the terrorists might do next, but I call horse puckey on that. If it’s true, the CIA and FBI should immediately be disbanded and no further money be wasted on them, since screenwriters do it better, and for free. ;)

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Robin (like) (flag)
March 26, 2009 at 1:13 pm

I realize that I’m not the Hollywood stereotype of a female audience member, but I’ve never been into “chick flicks” just because their main characters are women. I like movies with characters who are entertaining to watch, whatever their gender, doing interesting things. Growing up as a geek girl in the ’80s, that mostly meant sci-fi and action.

But here’s the thing… there was sci-fi and action starring women. I grew up in the era of Sarah Connor and Ellen Ripley and She-Ra, Princess of Power. (Okay, yes, in hindsight She-Ra was pretty sexist, but I didn’t realize that when I was seven.) These were women who could kick some cyborg / killer alien / monster butt and still clean up pretty good. They didn’t pull each other’s hair over the perfect wedding dress (but if they did they totally would’ve won). There were strong women role-models in every genre, not just the one the Hollywood number crunchers decided we should like.

Now, I will admit that there are some romantic comedies I enjoy. I can’t relate to the women of Sex and the City in the slightest, but I love Heathers and most of the John Hughes / Molly Ringwald movies. I have an inexplicable weakness for Someone Like You starring Ashley Judd. But probably my favorite “chick flick” of all time is Keeping the Faith, a story that is largely about the relationship between three friends, only one of whom is a woman, and directed my one of its (male) stars. And I almost never make a point of seeing these films in a theater, the way I did with Watchmen and Dark Knight and Iron Man.

Breaking through this blockbuster mentality is the same struggle viewers of the SciFi Channel (soon to be called “Syfy”, but that another argument entirely) have been having for years now. The entire genre, be it chick flicks or science fiction, is classified by the people in power as silly or frivolous, so they only fund the silly, frivolous scripts because they think those will turn the greatest profit. Thus we end up with things like Bride Wars and Ghost Hunters, when all we really want is good storytelling.

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MaggieCat (like) (flag)
March 27, 2009 at 12:48 am

Okay, yes, in hindsight She-Ra was pretty sexist, but I didn’t realize that when I was seven.

I’m going to have to disagree with you on that. Yes the skirt is a little short, but I’d argue that with a decent pair of bike shorts underneath it’s miles ahead of He-Man’s furry underpants and random chest straps costume. Frankly, I still think that’s one of the few cartoons that would update nicely to a live-action movie, and yet apparently someone decided to produce a movie based on Candy Land instead. Yes, really.

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Robin (like) (flag)
March 27, 2009 at 6:51 am

I wasn’t talking about the portrayal of She-Ra herself, as such. I was more commenting on her world as a whole. Maybe I just saw their bad episodes, but when I watched a few online a couple years back, I was struck by how demeaning it was in terms of gender roles. Then again, that’s kind of hard to avoid in a Dark-Ages-y setting, so maybe I’m just being overly sensitive about the whole thing. It’s been known to happen. [/off topic]

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Pocket Nerd (like) (flag)
March 27, 2009 at 7:43 am

Incidentally, the “MBAs replace artists” phenomenon isn’t limited to Hollywood. It happens often enough in the electronic gaming industry that I’d started to think of it as “the Electronic Arts Effect”— a company is founded by visionaries who just want to make really great games, it establishes itself with a popular franchise or two, and then its leadership is gradually replaced by business wonks who worry more about the bottom line than about making a fun toy. Gradually the visionaries leave as the corporate culture becomes hostile to ars gratia artis, and they’re replaced by uninspired clock-punchers more willing to conform to the business wonks’ policies. Eventually the company is reduced to a line of increasingly derivative works (Madden 200X, anybody?) while the upper management wonders why all their devoted fans and positive press seem to have disappeared.

It seems to me this promotes sexism in the video game industry as much as it does in the film industry. Game developers struck by the Electronic Arts Effect create games where women are trophies to be won with the male lead’s skills and prowess (“rescue the princess” is the most cliche example of this, but far from the only example) or, possibly worse, the simple state of being a woman is somehow depicted as strange and exotic. (Jennifer Brandes and Chris Hepler described this sort of character as “Woman Man” in their article Saving Throw for Half Cooties. Google it right now if you haven’t read it. No, seriously, right this instant.) Developers focused on merely creating a good game with a fun story aren’t immune from creating games with dumb stereotypes about women, but they are more likely to create games like Portal or Mass Effect.

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Jennifer Kesler (like) (flag)
March 27, 2009 at 8:41 am

I can’t find a link to that article that actually works. :(

But you’re right. I think it even goes beyond entertainment – look at corporate farming. It takes a special kind of psychosis to feed a cow beef or use sadistically inhumane methods of slaughtering if you actually see your livestock every day and you’re the one responsible; it’s much easier for sick stuff to happen when there’s a chain of responsibility, and everyone along it is removed from the actual activity they’re sanctioning, and no one feels solely responsible. It’s like mob psychology: individuals in a group will do really sick things that none of those individuals would ever do alone, because the responsibility is diffused and people get swept up in minutia.

Of course, some corporations choose to be ethical, and some solo entrepreneurs are unethical as hell. I’m just saying the corporate atmosphere makes unethical activity easier to perpetrate, because of the diffused responsibility and plausible deniability that comes with working as a group.

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Pocket Nerd (like) (flag)
March 27, 2009 at 9:16 am

I’m not sure about the legal issues, or whether a document that was once freely available on the web is okay to redistribute, but I can send you the PDF, if you like. Feel free to shoot me an email if you want a copy.

I think this website belongs to one of the authors:

http://www.strange-child.com/

You might be able to contact the author there. Me, I’m thinking about adding yet another blog feed… as if I didn’t have enough already…

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Ikkin (like) (flag)
March 27, 2009 at 3:48 pm

I managed to find a copy of Saving Throw For Half Cooties on the Wayback Machine:
http://web.archive.org/web/20061024035513/http://www.tasteslikephoenix.com/articles/women.html
The internet seems to make things more and more difficult to lose permanently. ;)

Going back to the topic of the “blockbuster mentality,” I think it causes some problems with entertainment that it couldn’t cause in other industries. After all, trying to create something as subjective as a movie or a game from an objective list of qualities is unlikely to result in something worthwhile. Not only is it incredibly difficult to pin down whether an audience doesn’t like a type of movie/character/whatever or just the way it’s implemented, but even if there was a perfect checklist of things people like, a movie could meet every relevant criteria and still come off as generic and soulless.

Letting the creators write things that they’d enjoy themselves might not be a perfect solution, but at least there wouldn’t be any “objective” ideal to pander to.

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Jha (like) (flag)
March 27, 2009 at 6:06 pm

Robin: I just finished watching all of She-ra (and it was good, and I feel my life has been muchly enriched) and while there are certainly some sexist elements, I’m not sure what you’re getting at there. Yes, the Fright Zone is filled with stupid male robots while Whispering Woods has several female characters with special powers. It’s commentary on environmentalism vs. industrialism. If we’re talking about Hordak, Hordak’s demeaning to everybody. The only thing that sticks out to me are the people whose costumes have gender codes and often it looked like there were more men than women, but there are several women in power throughout the show. It’s hard to say unless I know what episode you’re talking about. I know I found a couple of episodes very sexist, even while I was tittering with hilarity.

Back to the topic – This whole corporate mentality isn’t just hitting Hollywood either. I remember when I was in university, the fact that many large companies supported the school financially loomed large in the forms of the business school being nicer and shinier, the football field getting upgrades (while students had to deal with an increase in fees to subsidize it), and a general feel that the institution wasn’t for learning anymore.

It’s like mob rule. And, as we know, “a mob is only as clever as its stupidest member”. And stupid people tend to be cruel.

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DragonLadyK (like) (flag)
March 27, 2009 at 6:15 pm

The problem here isn’t the MBAs in charge of the industry, IMO.

The American viewing public are the ones positively reinforcing the MBAs’ “blockbuster mentality.” It’s like giving a dog a bone to shut him up when he barks at the neighbors: without meaning to, you’re training the dog to bark at the neighbors because the bad behavior (barking) is getting him what he wants (bones). Similiarly, by watching sexist/mindless television and movies “just because it’s on,” the American public reinforces the MBAs’ notion that teenage boys are in fact the best demographic. The bad behavior (sexist, brainless movies) is getting them what they want (money).

If blockbuster films/television suddenly plummeted while smart films/television held steady or increased viewership, the MBAs would change their tunes just to survive. It’s exactly like what’s happening with free-range eggs and organic foods: the production companies are noticing that more and more people are willing to buy those products even at a higher cost, so more and more companies are making those products available to cash in. The industry is being trained to produce better-quality food. McDonalds has very strict rules about how its animals are killed because there was a huge scandal about their slaughtering plants and people stopped buying their food because of it. Temple Grandin even uses McDonalds as an example in her books of the fact the industry is capable of change if given sufficient motivation.

The MBA’s care for money above all else makes them eminently trainable by a determined public. ^^

DragonLady

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Jennifer Kesler (like) (flag)
March 27, 2009 at 9:31 pm

DragonLadyK, I disagree for the most part, and have written extensively about why (no, I promise I’m not throwing a hoard of links at you – I’ll sum up my argument as best I can after *g*):

http://thehathorlegacy.com/nobody-knows-anything-but-dont-tell-the-financiers/

http://thehathorlegacy.com/why-women-cant-vote-with-their-dollars-in-film-and-tv/

http://thehathorlegacy.com/women-dont-go-see-movies/

http://thehathorlegacy.com/women-viewers-need-not-apply/

And from the L.A. Times: http://articles.latimes.com/1998/jun/26/entertainment/ca-63618

The William Goldman link is the best (the first one) – in it, he describes how when a film does unexpectedly well, normally the studios try to figure out why so they can replicate the success. Except when it features or targets women – then, it’s just a fluke, and you can’t replicate those, so onto the next bit.

The flipside of this is: when a movie flops, the MBAs also ahve to try to figure out why. They have to guess at possibilities and then reason out whether those sound right. And gee whiz, I’ve never heard of any of them guessing “Maybe people other than those weirdo feminists are sick of gender stereotypes.” If it doesn’t even occur to them as a consideration, they can’t possibly realize that’s the change the audience is after.

Whereas, if people stop buying Big Macs, and you haven’t changed how you make ‘em lately, and FAST FOOD MAKES YOU FAT, AND THEN YOU SUCK is all over the news, it’s pretty easy to figure out what your consumers are rejecting.

I also wrote this article:

http://thehathorlegacy.com/why-discriminate-if-it-doesnt-profit/

Which compares the film industry’s unawareness of the desire for cool women characters to the hair styling industry’s unawareness that they aren’t by and large servicing the curly haired majority unless we conform by straightening our hair. So, this sort of ignorance is not limited to film – and the result is that the industry becomes the mountain and the consumer becomes Mohammed, rather than the other way around.

BTW, this does not negate your point that it might eventually help if people would stop watching crap. I’m just saying that before that CAN help, the MBAs will need a wake-up call in order to even begin to guess what’s being rejected.

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Jennifer Kesler (like) (flag)
March 27, 2009 at 9:49 pm

Ikkin, thanks for finding that! Awesome article – seriously, everyone must go read it, gamer or not. I found it particularly insightful because I’m not a gamer, and it paints vividly the misconceptions people have about women and gaming and women gamers and women who opt out of gaming.

Re: your remark about the guessing system filmmakers employed before things got more corporate. I agree – and it also doesn’t give people the illusion they’ve been objective, and therefore whatever conclusions they’ve drawn are unassailable, thereby making everyone who disagrees with them wrong. I can’t tell you how many conversations I had with film pros that went something like this:

Me: You say numbers don’t lie. Where are the numbers proving, for example, people don’t want more Ellen Ripleys?
Them: That movie last month about the blond shop-a-holic didn’t do well.
Me: Yeah, and? She was nothing like Ellen Ripley.
Them: [blank stare - perhaps they thought "has vagina" was the extent of my criteria?]
Me: I’m talking about heroic women in action and sci-fi, not Valley girls shopping in chick flicks.
Them: Well, people only saw Aliens because of the aliens, not Ellen Ripley.
Me: And you know this how?
Them: Because the numbers don’t lie. Look, I’m sympathetic, but someday you’ll understand.

After I got assimilated, I guess.

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DragonLadyK (like) (flag)
March 28, 2009 at 1:06 am

BTW, this does not negate your point that it might eventually help if people would stop watching crap. I’m just saying that before that CAN help, the MBAs will need a wake-up call in order to even begin to guess what’s being rejected.

I’m saying that as long as the American viewing public (and by that I mean not just women and feminists, I mean people of both genders and the non-feminists, that is, the same people who are rewarding the MBAs now) are willing to watch crap even though they want not-crap, or if they enjoy crap, then any wake-up call efforts are doomed to failure.

In behavioral science, primary reinforcers are things that have an effect all of themselves, like sex, pain, and food. Secondary reinforcers are things that mean something else is coming, like sirens or a promotion. Primary reinforcers trump secondary reinforcers every time.

To use an example, let’s take parents yelling at their kids. Parents are told by experts that good parents don’t yell at their kids because yelling at kids is bad for them. Other people look askance at parents who yell. Both of those are social consquences, which are secondary reinforcers. They don’t stop parents from yelling at their kids most of the time because a negative reinforcement loop is a primary reinforcer: the child is doing something painful or distressing to the parent, the parent yells, the child stops; the child habituates to yelling, so the parent yells louder, and the child stops. The tangible satisfaction wins. Only when yelling stops working (either because the child has completely habituated, or because the constant activation of the RAGE system caused by constant yelling becomes in itself painful to the parent) does the parent stop yelling and start listening to other training options held forth by the experts they were ignoring earlier. Sometimes that point is never reached and the loop continues until the child leaves the house.

The MBAs are being primarily reinforced for producing blockbusters — like the parents yelling at their kids, they’re stuck in a loop. They provide crappy entertainment, the public watches and habituates, the MBAs provide even more crappy (or crappier) entertainment, the public still watches and habituates, and so on and so on.

As long as the loop is working and the reward persists, they have no incentive to listen to an alternative viewpoint. The secondary reinforcer of feminist ire and losing the feminist market they already don’t have will not trump the primary reinforcer of millions of dollars from the viewing public as a whole. Telling MBAs they need to change now and expecting it to work is working against human nature.

Instead, it would be more effective and more likely not to backslide as soon as your back is turned to convince the American viewing public first that they have the power to train the MBAs (which most people don’t feel is true; they think they just have to accept what is produced or else abandon TV/film entirely), and to convince them that better-quality programming is worth boycotting in the short term. That will make the reinforcement loop stop working, which will give the MBAs a primary reinforcer reason to listen to the feminist viewpoint.

The change-the-market-first approach would take a lot of time, of course, but behavioral science is like engineering: you can make it cheap, fast, or right, but not all three. ^^

DragonLady

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Jennifer Kesler (like) (flag)
March 28, 2009 at 8:13 am

DragonLadyK, that’s very well said and I can’t add anything to it but agreement.

Just to be clear, what I was specifically arguing against was:

The problem here isn’t the MBAs in charge of the industry, IMO.

A lot of people tell me it’s not them, it’s the viewers. But they don’t go the extra step and acknowledge the feedback loop: that the MBAs have to figure out WHY we’re rejecting a film, or nothing the audience does will help. (As I pointed out to one young producer, I had been avoiding films for years because they don’t feature more Ellen Ripleys, but the MBAs think it’s because I’m a girl, and girls don’t go to movies unless their menfolk dragz ‘em along. That’s why I said women can’t vote with our dollars – no one understands what we’re voting for.)

Interestingly, the MBAs also swear “It’s not us who’s sexist, racist, etc. – it’s the viewers! We hate it, but we must chase those dollars, and we have proof, we swear, that the audience wants bigotry on screen! We can’t produce this proof – take our word for it.”

So I totally think the MBAs are a big part of the problem. I agree with you that the audience is also part of it. But one could also argue that the lack of anything comparable to going to a theater is also part of the problem – as long as people enjoy being locked in a dark room in a state of sensory deprivation while entertainment unfolds on a screen and they eat candy and popcorn, people are going to continue to see movies, no matter what crap is put out. So as I see it, the MBAs are by far the primary problem. Even if we all did what you suggest, which I wish we would, I think it’s actually possible the industry would fail before MBAs would ever consider the possibility that people other than weird academics were tired of stereotypes. They are that firmly convinced we love stereotypes and get confused and angry when we can’t judge a character by their looks.

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Kiki (like) (flag)
March 28, 2009 at 8:41 am

The whole reinforcing by going to blockbusters etc. Made me think of an example from my life.

My boyfriend loves comic books, and loves movies based off comic books. He really wants to see “Watchmen”. I’m really tired of all the comic book movies about ambiguous morality and “world of darkness”. This is like the 5th movie out this year about the same basic premsis IMO. Not going. Period. I play the roleplaying games where you are amibiguous morality superhero and I live in a world where it seems like working hard is not getting people anywhere. I’m on stike until we get what the public really needs: splashy 1930s era musicals that make the publc feel good.

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Pocket Nerd (like) (flag)
March 28, 2009 at 9:00 am

I don’t buy the “we poor movie moguls are just obeying the mighty Vox Populi” angle either. It has always been the privilege and the duty of art to challenge cultural standards and boundaries. And it’s not like Hollywood turns out just one or two movies every year and has to pick them carefully; there’s plenty of room to experiment. Sure, movies have to please the moviegoing masses to make a buck, but sometimes you can present the moviegoing masses with something they didn’t know they’d like. American Beauty, Braveheart, and The Matrix are all award-winning films that almost didn’t see the light of day because conventional Hollywood wisdom said they would never sell; and each has been widely copied since then, helping to shape the direction of modern cinema. Hollywood took a chance, and it paid off.

Why don’t we see woman-positive works as ground-breaking and as seminal as those movies? Why do we see so few movies that take a chance on the idea that women are not only a market demographic, but a rich source of stories to tell? (I mean, there are three billion of you, so there must be a few bucks to be made in catering to your tastes, right?) Why is it easier and more socially acceptable to make a big, expensive, heavily-promoted movie about a computer nerd’s power-trip fantasy or a creepy middle-aged man’s age-inappropriate sexual infatuation than it is to make a movie about women acting like women?

I can only assume it’s because Hollywood’s producers and financial backers are genuine misogynists. Maybe not in the “RAWR ME HATE WO-MAN” sense, but they find stories about women boring or repellent, so they tell themselves that everybody else finds stories about women boring and repellent too. The Vox Populi argument just doesn’t hold water. The masses may not be screaming for movies about and by women, but they weren’t exactly screaming for a movie about fourteenth-century Scottish history either.

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DragonLadyK (like) (flag)
March 28, 2009 at 9:58 am

I think it’s actually possible the industry would fail before MBAs would ever consider the possibility that people other than weird academics were tired of stereotypes.

I disagree.

Ed Bernero’s “Criminal Minds” is full of vivid, realistic, powerful women both behind badges, as civillians, and as victims. Every character regardless of gender, including the walk-ons, is a three dimensional being with a soul. The show has incredibly deep thematic elements, as well as evoking every possible emotional response from the viewer in turns. CBS let Ed make his show his way, they haven’t cancelled it, and it’s sitting beautifully in the Neilsens making them beaucoup bucks.

“Babylon 5″ also had vivid, realisitic female characters who were the equals of their male counterparts. Delenn was a powerhouse (like John Sheridan), then there was courageous, hilarious, but damaged Susan (and Michael Garibaldi), Talia who had the courage to turn everything she believed on its head when she had to (as G’Kar did), and Lyta who had the power to face down gods and did so. Dodger was a soldier who lived for the day and killed efficiently just like her male GROPOS counterparts without apology. The TNT execs put B5 on the air and on DVD, and as a “cult hit” it has made them money.

The MBAs have the capacity to fund smart entertainment. They have in the past. In an America with a picky viewing public, only those shows would still be making money. That would provide proof (and positive reinforcement) to the feminist viewpoint.

Even if those particular MBAs didn’t listen, other MBAs would come along who would listen. Capitalism doesn’t exist in a vacuum — if one person refuses to make money off something, someone else will step in. Just look at Dr. Temple Grandin’s work. No one in the meat industry thought you could make money being humane or make money off behavioral science, and she’s been doing it and teaching others to do it for decades.

DragonLady

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gategrrl (like) (flag)
March 28, 2009 at 11:54 am

(I don’t want to derail this thread, but…)

DragonLadyK said:

Um…do none of these female characters have last names like the male characters you also mentioned? I do know that Susan’s last name was Ivanova, Talia’s last name was Shire, Delenn was alien and therefore didn’t seem to have a last name, and I don’t remember Lyta’s last name, but I know she had one.

Why not use their last names while you’re using the male character’s last names? It’s a pattern I see often–not just with you, but many others who refer to female characters and male characters. Female characters are referred to by their first, familiar names, while male characters are almost always referred to by their full names or last names only.

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21
gategrrl (like) (flag)
March 28, 2009 at 11:56 am

For some reason the quote function didn’t stop at the end your quote. My comment is the final paragraph.

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22
gategrrl (like) (flag)
March 28, 2009 at 11:57 am

Actually, that entire message was messed up. That entire quote section is mine. Jeez, and here I’m on my second cup of coffee this morning. Never mind my second comment.

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Jennifer Kesler (like) (flag)
March 28, 2009 at 1:49 pm

DragonLadyK, those are all TV examples. TV is quite different from film on this point – much more willing to experiment and risk a few bucks to see if this new idea someone had will fly with the audience. Very often, we lump TV and film together on this site, but this is one case where the very nature of the two media makes that impossible – a movie is a one-shot deal, and a very expensive one (particularly in the case of a blockbuster, which is what this post is about), while a pilot TV show is much cheaper and poses much less risk to any one individual’s career.

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DragonLadyK (like) (flag)
March 28, 2009 at 1:49 pm

Talia’s last name was Shire, Delenn was alien and therefore didn’t seem to have a last name, and I don’t remember Lyta’s last name, but I know she had one.

Talia’s last name was Winters, not Shire. Lyta’s last name was Alexander. Delenn doesn’t have a last nime, but she was the Chosen of Dukat and the Entil’zha and for a while she was Satai.

Why not use their last names while you’re using the male character’s last names?

Because I figured that some of the people here wouldn’t immediately know that “Sheridan” and “Garibaldi” were men I was using as similarities unless I included their first names as well, just like they wouldn’t immediately understand “Ivanova,” “Winters,” and “Alexander” were women. “Susan,” “Talia,” and “Lyta” are pretty obviously female and the names are somewhat unique instead of the utterly generic “John” and “Michael.”

Secondly, that “rule” isn’t true. In SGA fandom John Sheppard and Rodney McKay are John and Rodney. Elizabeth Weir is sometiles Elizabeth and sometimes Weir, Samantha Carter is sometimes Sam and sometimes Carter, and Radek Zelenka is sometimes Radek and sometimes Zelenka. In Star Trek: TNG everyone — Picard (M), Riker (M), Crusher (F), Troi (F), Data (M), Pulaski (F) — is called by hir last name except Geordi LaForge and Wesley Crusher. In DS9 it’s a total toss-up: Julian (M), Sisko (M), Kira (which is her last name) (F), Kassidy (F), O’Brien (M), Jadzia (F), Ezri (F), Garak (his last name) (M), and Jake (M). Then there’s Worf, Quark, Rom, Nog and Odo who don’t have last names. I guess technically Worf is a Roschenko but no body ever pays attention to it. Everybody calls him “Worf.” In Criminal Minds JJ (F) and Hotch (M) are both called by their nicknames in fandom; Rossi (M), Gideon (M), Morgan (M), Reid (M), Strauss (F), and Garcia (F) all go by surnames; while Elle (F) and Emily (F) go by first names.

It’s not a gender thing, it’s whichever name “sticks.” ^^

DragonLady

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Jennifer Kesler (like) (flag)
March 28, 2009 at 2:19 pm

Why don’t we see woman-positive works as ground-breaking and as seminal as those movies?

That’s what William Goldman has been asking. When most movies do unexpectedly well, everyone scrambles to replicate them. But when movies featuring women do well – his example being First Wives Club, which not only made money but appealed to audiences they had thought would ignore it – it’s dismissed as a “non-recurring phenomenon”, and no attempt to replicate it is performed.

but they find stories about women boring or repellent, so they tell themselves that everybody else finds stories about women boring and repellent too. The Vox Populi argument just doesn’t hold water. The masses may not be screaming for movies about and by women, but they weren’t exactly screaming for a movie about fourteenth-century Scottish history either.

That’s what I’m saying. I believe it is the MBAs who are only interested in stories about people just like themselves, and they are projecting that preference onto the audience. Therefore, they will HAPPILY produce chick flicks, targeting women viewers and featuring women who behave like they think women behave.

Gategrrl and I once talked to a young African-American screenwriter who’d graduated NYU and moved to L.A. to sell screenplays. She’d written a script that was basically autobiographical, and studio after studio told her it wasn’t plausible. Because, of course, they know better than she what is plausible in a young African-American woman’s life. I’ve talked to white women screenwriters reporting similar phenomenon – our stories, which any female reader would immediately understand as plausible, get dismissed by white men as implausible.

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DragonLadyK (like) (flag)
March 28, 2009 at 2:25 pm

Very often, we lump TV and film together on this site, but this is one case where the very nature of the two media makes that impossible – a movie is a one-shot deal, and a very expensive one (particularly in the case of a blockbuster, which is what this post is about), while a pilot TV show is much cheaper and poses much less risk to any one individual’s career.

If fear of bombing is these guys’ biggest fear, then bombing is the perfect punishment to use.

I picked TV examples because I don’t go to the movies often ($7.50 a show, plus snacks, are you kidding me?) and the mentalities of the writers are often the same as movie writers, but the film “Push” was a step in the right direction. The Stitch and the enemy Watcher were completely cold-blooded and non-nurturing — especially the Stitch. Cassie’s mother was so powerful that the most powerful Division worldwide locked her up because they knew they couldn’t control her (yet Cassie’s mom still managed to orchestrate a plot to wound Division like a true chess master). Cassie was a tough cookie as well as smart — “if it’s shadowed I won’t be able to draw it,” brilliant — and while Kira was the Love Interest and the McGuffin she still took out the Head Baddie at the end by forcing him to put his gun in his mouth and pull the trigger. The main hero treated a thirteen year old girl like an equal and a partner, and he never underestimated his female adversaries. It was a noire-sensiblity film, too.

“Enchanted” had a woman choosing the man who respected her as a person and showed her how to express negative emotions over the “prince charming” fairytale ideal of love. She also chased after the kidnapped male love interest with a sword when he was taken by the dragon. The “prince charming” was also completely oblivious and useless. I love that movie.

“Stardust” and “Hercules” featured snarky, sarcastic, and independent female leads. Yvaine, we’ll note, took out the bad guy herself after Tristan spent fifteen minutes getting his rear handed to him — and would have a lot sooner if her powers didn’t stop working when she was sad — and then there was Una, who locked her sorceress keeper in the wagon and drove the wagon to the rescue like a bat out of Hell. I loved Meg’s smart mouth to pieces.

“Shrek” had Princess Fiona choose ugliness and happiness as an ogre over the ideal of beauty as a princess. She also could hold her own against bandits. In the sequel she proudly confronted her father expecting to be loved in spite of her appearance, and then in the third movie she roused the other princesses into rescuing themselves.

There’s potential for trainablity in Hollywood film-making if the American public was determined enough.

DragonLady

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27
bellatrys (like) (flag)
March 28, 2009 at 2:48 pm

This phenomenon isn’t just limited to H’wood, nor to appealing-to-female-audiences: I’ve seen it in a number of retail fields, where bosses who in theory, and who *think* that they are in fact, committed to The Bottom Line and Making Money First And Foremost, simply *insist* on courting market segments that they personally are invested in (usually their own demographic, but not always) or attempting to do so in ways that are idiosyncratic because they have some fixation on a particular type of advertising vehicle or model – only advertising on AM radio because that’s the only thing they listen to personally, or having this touching childlike faith in those newspaper inserts for some inexplicable reason, nevermind what the marketing studies show, or common sense, or polling customers, or *anything.*

Sometimes they will try to find data that “proves” what they already believe, over the heads of the marketing departments or the department analysts, calling loudly on the names of Objectivity and Show Me The Numbers! – but when we come back with the counter-data, then they swear by their guts instead.

Then, when nobody responds to the given gimmick, when for some reason not enough Heavy Metal Station or Easy Listening/Oldies listeners want to buy certain expensive products with a limited target audience to pay for the ads let alone bring in a profit – well, it’s all The Economy, or Incomprehensible Market Forces. (–This is quite apart from the sorts of issues that discourage customers/repeat business, and assuming all things being equal. There are many many ways for businesses to shoot themselves in the foot, though I keep thinking I’ve Seen Them All By Now, I am perpetually surprised.) Not that we should have advertised in one of the trade journals targeted to people whose job involves using our products, oh no! Not that we should have concentrated on selling our best features, instead of spending the budget on the 3-D animation or the really expensive mailer sent out to people who have never bought from us before from the mailing list that the owner thinks is “a classy one” printed on the heavy stock with the high-gloss varnish and die-cut because that’s what the owner thinks is WAY COOL!!!1! even though he won’t allow a cheap test ad run in a likely market full of previous and repeat customers, says it’s a “waste of money on a gamble”…

I’m deliberately being vaguer here than I could be, to protect the innocent and guilty alike. But the “we will pretend that SCIENCE!!! is responsible for our going along with our biases” is very human, and H’wood is no more immune to it than anywhere else. I remember also the feature on NPR some years ago, when the question of female voices as narrators of movie trailers came up, and all these dusty old cranky studio honchos kept saying that Men Don’t Like To Hear Women Telling Them What To Do (in this case, “Go see this movie, you’ll love it, it’s right up your alley!”) even when the statistics showed that the (extremely rare) films with female-narrated trailers did no worse at all…

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28
Jennifer Kesler (like) (flag)
March 28, 2009 at 4:48 pm

DragonLadyK, how do examples of movies that don’t suck prove that MBAs are open-minded enough (or even just asking the right questions) to be “trainable”?

Bellatrys, very nicely said. Yes, businesses DO leave money on the table because execs think they’re being objective when they’re not. It happens all the time, because it’s not just the numbers, it’s how human brains interpret them, and what they expect to see has a lot to do with that. So when the audience changes the numbers by not buying the product, that does not necessarily result in the desired change.

I mean, when Hathor has a low month for traffic, do you think I have the slightest idea why people aren’t showing up so much? Could be you’re all busy. Could be an article offended someone. Could be too many posts, or too few. Could be a technical issue. Could be everyone lost interest and decided their current entertainment is okay. Could be there’s another site doing what we do, only better, and everyone’s there now. Could be everyone thinks our work here is done. Could be… you see what I mean? There must be at least 100 other possible reasons that will never even occur to me, and one of them might be the correct ones. And in any case, how can I ask my readers why they’ve left when they’re no longer here to read the question? If I wanted to pay a market research firm to hunt y’all down and ask where you’ve gone, how could I? You come here anonymously, like a movie ticket buyer.

This is because understanding consumers has ALWAYS been difficult when it’s not impossible, and – as William Goldman suggested – the MBAs have more invested in convincing financiers they understand the audience than in actually understanding the audience.

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29
DragonLadyK (like) (flag)
March 28, 2009 at 5:20 pm

DragonLadyK, how do examples of movies that don’t suck prove that MBAs are open-minded enough (or even just asking the right questions) to be “trainable”?

You can’t train a horse to track mountain lions and tree them. A horse doesn’t have predatorial instincts, it doesn’t have parallax-depth perception, it doesn’t have a “tracking” sense of smell, and it does have thousands of years of prey-animal instincts telling it to run away from mountain lions. A horse is not a dog and it will never be a dog. It does not have the capacity. No amount of training can ever make a horse track & train a mountain lion like a hunting dog does.

Movie and TV execs have made well-written movies featuring strong female characters that didn’t stick slavishly to stereotypical gender roles or behaviors. They have the capacity to do what we want them to do, just like the dog in my previous illustration has the capacity not to bark at the neighbors or parents have the capacity not to yell at their children.

Training is about expanding on that, about taking the behavior you do want that the training subject is already doing and rewarding it; and then punishing or failing to reward the behavior you don’t like.

Right now the American public is rewarding sexist crap and non-sexist crap. Both crap and not-crap are doing well at the box office and making the execs money.

When a feminist rolls along and says “we need to make more movies about realistic female characters” the MBAs have no incentive to believe: what they are doing now is getting them what they want, just like the dog barking at the neighbors is getting bones. If that particular exec had a non-stereotypical movie bomb for whatever reason, then that has negatively reinforced him to try to change because his worse fear (bombing) was connected with the idea “non-stereotypical crap.”

However, if the American public stopped rewarding the bad behavior and stopped watching crappy films and only the non-sexist films that already exist — though rare — did well, then that would break the reinforcement loop. The MBAs would then have reason to change their behaivor just like a dog stops barking at the neighbors when quietly sitting starts bringing the bones (and/or barking starts brining mild shocks).

Furthermore, if they didn’t change their behavior than those particular execs would go bankrupt or be fired and some other individuals who are flexible would take their place. Those MBA execs are answerable to stockholders and corporate boards, and those are entities that do not take losing money well. And even if all coroporate moguls are really misogynists who would drive their companies into the ground rather than write stories about real women, other companies would start up who didn’t have that problem out of sheer capitalist market pressure.

Either way, the American viewing public is what has the power to make the change by bringing forth primar reinforcement punishments, if it is determined enough to follow through. Feminists should then be appealing to them, not to the execs stuck in a reinforcement loop.

DragonLady

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Jennifer Kesler (like) (flag)
March 28, 2009 at 9:47 pm

Okay, I still think it will be more difficult than you think to crack through the brainwashing, but let’s agree to disagree about that.

Even assuming audiences have the power to retrain the MBAs now, audiences did not generate the bias upon which the MBAs have been acting for 30 years, so that much of the responsibility must fall squarely on MBAs. For example:

(1) When the MBAs decided only young white men were worth making movies for, it was a time period in which entire families were trekking to the latest blockbuster on a weekly basis. The audience contributed nothing to this idea that everyone else is just not a worthwhile audience (which the Wall Street Journal, Business Week and the LA Times have all questioned, too).

(2) When the MBAs decided no one wanted to see movies featuring women… well, this was right after the time period Melissa mentioned (which I quoted). See her list of all the rather profitable movies featuring women which clearly a lot of people wanted to see.

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