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	<title>Comments on: The protection myth: sufficient surrender</title>
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	<description>the search for good women characters</description>
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		<title>By: Jennifer Kesler</title>
		<link>http://thehathorlegacy.com/the-protection-myth-sufficient-surrender/comment-page-1/#comment-89296</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer Kesler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:15:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehathorlegacy.com/the-protection-myth-sufficient-surrender/#comment-89296</guid>
		<description>Neil, if memory serves, I did once come across the information and: she started by asking if they&#039;d ever raped anyone, and nearly everyone denied they had. Then she started describing scenarios of going ahead with sex when the partner is saying no, or is unconscious, etc., and that&#039;s when 4.5% said yes.

I could be mixing things up, so don&#039;t take it to the bank, but I distinctly remember forming the impression it was an entitlement issue, which makes sense if they think there are situations where having sex with an unwilling partner isn&#039;t rape - it would be because they feel somehow she owes it to them.

I also recall a really disturbing story told by a male baby boomer, in which he recounted being a teen in the 60s, and all his friends told him no didn&#039;t mean no unless she, like, hit you or something. Naturally, girls are strongly conditioned not to hit people, and most wouldn&#039;t have felt entitled to reinforce a &quot;no&quot; this way, so what this man was explaining is how there was probably a &lt;i&gt;ton&lt;/i&gt; of date rape in his day that possibly &lt;i&gt;neither&lt;/i&gt; party recognized as what it was. 

It&#039;s not so much that the definition of rape has changed as that our definition of women as humans with inalienable rights rather than the property of fathers and husbands has changed. (Rape definitions have changed, I&#039;m just saying I think the central issue is whether society views women as property, humans, or humans who are obliged to sexually service other humans and therefore only have so many rights when it comes to sex.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neil, if memory serves, I did once come across the information and: she started by asking if they&#8217;d ever raped anyone, and nearly everyone denied they had. Then she started describing scenarios of going ahead with sex when the partner is saying no, or is unconscious, etc., and that&#8217;s when 4.5% said yes.</p>
<p>I could be mixing things up, so don&#8217;t take it to the bank, but I distinctly remember forming the impression it was an entitlement issue, which makes sense if they think there are situations where having sex with an unwilling partner isn&#8217;t rape &#8211; it would be because they feel somehow she owes it to them.</p>
<p>I also recall a really disturbing story told by a male baby boomer, in which he recounted being a teen in the 60s, and all his friends told him no didn&#8217;t mean no unless she, like, hit you or something. Naturally, girls are strongly conditioned not to hit people, and most wouldn&#8217;t have felt entitled to reinforce a &#8220;no&#8221; this way, so what this man was explaining is how there was probably a <i>ton</i> of date rape in his day that possibly <i>neither</i> party recognized as what it was. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s not so much that the definition of rape has changed as that our definition of women as humans with inalienable rights rather than the property of fathers and husbands has changed. (Rape definitions have changed, I&#8217;m just saying I think the central issue is whether society views women as property, humans, or humans who are obliged to sexually service other humans and therefore only have so many rights when it comes to sex.)</p>
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		<title>By: Neil</title>
		<link>http://thehathorlegacy.com/the-protection-myth-sufficient-surrender/comment-page-1/#comment-89288</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Jun 2009 05:17:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehathorlegacy.com/the-protection-myth-sufficient-surrender/#comment-89288</guid>
		<description>The 4.5% figure still seems high -- not for the number of men who have committed rape, but for the number that would admit it. I was not able to locate the exact wording of the survey, but I am fairly certain the question asked was not: &quot;Have you ever raped a woman?&quot; The very definition of rape, which has been evolving in recent years, has a very wide range of interpretations. I&#039;d be very interested to know what the exact wording was on the survey, if anyone knows for certain I would be very interested to read it, as her analysis used her particular definition of rape, and I&#039;d be willing to bet that most of the participants who engaged in any questionable behavior would define rape as something just beyond what they themselves had done. Depending on which shade of gray one uses to define rape, 1% or, using some of the most extreme definitions I have read that include classifying even sexual thoughts as rape, 100% of men are rapists. 

The truth is obviously somewhere in between. Perhaps I am just myopically naive because I can&#039;t even visualize myself doing something like this and cannot understand how men would derive pleasure from it; however, I can&#039;t imagine torturing a helpless animal but I acknowledge that some people do it. To a certain extent, although I would find the actual numbers defined by varying definitions interesting, their importance, I believe, would be rather meaningless compared to the aforementioned importance of teaching men to act like human beings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The 4.5% figure still seems high &#8212; not for the number of men who have committed rape, but for the number that would admit it. I was not able to locate the exact wording of the survey, but I am fairly certain the question asked was not: &#8220;Have you ever raped a woman?&#8221; The very definition of rape, which has been evolving in recent years, has a very wide range of interpretations. I&#8217;d be very interested to know what the exact wording was on the survey, if anyone knows for certain I would be very interested to read it, as her analysis used her particular definition of rape, and I&#8217;d be willing to bet that most of the participants who engaged in any questionable behavior would define rape as something just beyond what they themselves had done. Depending on which shade of gray one uses to define rape, 1% or, using some of the most extreme definitions I have read that include classifying even sexual thoughts as rape, 100% of men are rapists. </p>
<p>The truth is obviously somewhere in between. Perhaps I am just myopically naive because I can&#8217;t even visualize myself doing something like this and cannot understand how men would derive pleasure from it; however, I can&#8217;t imagine torturing a helpless animal but I acknowledge that some people do it. To a certain extent, although I would find the actual numbers defined by varying definitions interesting, their importance, I believe, would be rather meaningless compared to the aforementioned importance of teaching men to act like human beings.</p>
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		<title>By: Jennifer Kesler</title>
		<link>http://thehathorlegacy.com/the-protection-myth-sufficient-surrender/comment-page-1/#comment-89285</link>
		<dc:creator>Jennifer Kesler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 17:11:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehathorlegacy.com/the-protection-myth-sufficient-surrender/#comment-89285</guid>
		<description>Neil, that&#039;s all true, but I think what&#039;s striking about the survey is how many young men self-reported raping women. Certainly the exact numbers are hard to put stock in, but I feel the fact that these guys were telling a stranger they&#039;re guilty of a felony with a prison sentence backs up the assertion many of us have been making for years: that there&#039;s more than a handful of nasty, moustache-twirling villains committing rape. 

It&#039;s also extremely disturbing that &lt;i&gt;this is the only work anyone&#039;s ever done in an attempt to determine how many men are rapists.&lt;/i&gt; That right there - the fact that the DoJ has stats out the ear about how many people have been raped and what age and gender they are and race and so on, but they don&#039;t have any clue what percentage of men are rapists? I find that bizarre. (Of course, I&#039;d also like to know what percentage of people are murderers, and so on. There&#039;s something wrong with criminology in general, there.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neil, that&#8217;s all true, but I think what&#8217;s striking about the survey is how many young men self-reported raping women. Certainly the exact numbers are hard to put stock in, but I feel the fact that these guys were telling a stranger they&#8217;re guilty of a felony with a prison sentence backs up the assertion many of us have been making for years: that there&#8217;s more than a handful of nasty, moustache-twirling villains committing rape. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s also extremely disturbing that <i>this is the only work anyone&#8217;s ever done in an attempt to determine how many men are rapists.</i> That right there &#8211; the fact that the DoJ has stats out the ear about how many people have been raped and what age and gender they are and race and so on, but they don&#8217;t have any clue what percentage of men are rapists? I find that bizarre. (Of course, I&#8217;d also like to know what percentage of people are murderers, and so on. There&#8217;s something wrong with criminology in general, there.)</p>
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		<title>By: Neil</title>
		<link>http://thehathorlegacy.com/the-protection-myth-sufficient-surrender/comment-page-1/#comment-89284</link>
		<dc:creator>Neil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Jun 2009 16:44:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehathorlegacy.com/the-protection-myth-sufficient-surrender/#comment-89284</guid>
		<description>One important detail regarding the 4.5% statistic: Not only was this a survey that relied on self-reporting, but the survey was also only of people in college. Incidence of nearly all crimes decline as education rises, although I admit I have no idea if this holds true for rape as well. If it does, the number may be even higher still.

On the other hand, college could provide a nearly perfect environment that fosters rape, particularly non-violent rape, with the ready availability of large numbers of inebriated women and the fraternity mentality, that is social acceptance of and pressure toward sex with women in this state. This could mean that this segment of the population has higher incidence than the average.

In any event, projecting a statistic taken from a survey of such a narrow segment of the population onto the entire country is bound to be flawed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One important detail regarding the 4.5% statistic: Not only was this a survey that relied on self-reporting, but the survey was also only of people in college. Incidence of nearly all crimes decline as education rises, although I admit I have no idea if this holds true for rape as well. If it does, the number may be even higher still.</p>
<p>On the other hand, college could provide a nearly perfect environment that fosters rape, particularly non-violent rape, with the ready availability of large numbers of inebriated women and the fraternity mentality, that is social acceptance of and pressure toward sex with women in this state. This could mean that this segment of the population has higher incidence than the average.</p>
<p>In any event, projecting a statistic taken from a survey of such a narrow segment of the population onto the entire country is bound to be flawed.</p>
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		<title>By: Kar</title>
		<link>http://thehathorlegacy.com/the-protection-myth-sufficient-surrender/comment-page-1/#comment-88680</link>
		<dc:creator>Kar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 23:45:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehathorlegacy.com/the-protection-myth-sufficient-surrender/#comment-88680</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t agree more with the statement that it would be better to educate sons than to force daughters to be paranoid.

Father&#039;s and mother&#039;s say &quot;Watch out. You know boys your age only want one thing! Don&#039;t go out dressing like that, etc.&quot; Thus, women are taught to fear and be submissive. I say submission because, in a sense, they are submitting their freedom in order to &quot;not attract those men.&quot; God forbid a woman wears a tight fitting top; how dare she entice the men.

If boys are taught to respect women, treat them as equals, not as objects, then perhaps this rapist issue could be helped a little. The current process seems the equivalent of letting a robber go free while bombarding the victim with &quot;Don&#039;t be driving around in a BMW! That&#039;s just asking to me robbed. You know all robbers just want your money, etc.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t agree more with the statement that it would be better to educate sons than to force daughters to be paranoid.</p>
<p>Father&#8217;s and mother&#8217;s say &#8220;Watch out. You know boys your age only want one thing! Don&#8217;t go out dressing like that, etc.&#8221; Thus, women are taught to fear and be submissive. I say submission because, in a sense, they are submitting their freedom in order to &#8220;not attract those men.&#8221; God forbid a woman wears a tight fitting top; how dare she entice the men.</p>
<p>If boys are taught to respect women, treat them as equals, not as objects, then perhaps this rapist issue could be helped a little. The current process seems the equivalent of letting a robber go free while bombarding the victim with &#8220;Don&#8217;t be driving around in a BMW! That&#8217;s just asking to me robbed. You know all robbers just want your money, etc.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: quintessence</title>
		<link>http://thehathorlegacy.com/the-protection-myth-sufficient-surrender/comment-page-1/#comment-88679</link>
		<dc:creator>quintessence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:23:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehathorlegacy.com/the-protection-myth-sufficient-surrender/#comment-88679</guid>
		<description>Another thought . . .
Women are punished for being hurt, and trying to protect themselves from being hurt.  If you karate-chop some guy trying to rape you, you&#039;ll probably end up charged with assault. Or pushed out if you call harassment on your boss. Soon you just try to find a way to make the pain bearable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another thought . . .<br />
Women are punished for being hurt, and trying to protect themselves from being hurt.  If you karate-chop some guy trying to rape you, you&#8217;ll probably end up charged with assault. Or pushed out if you call harassment on your boss. Soon you just try to find a way to make the pain bearable.</p>
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		<title>By: quintessence</title>
		<link>http://thehathorlegacy.com/the-protection-myth-sufficient-surrender/comment-page-1/#comment-88678</link>
		<dc:creator>quintessence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:21:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehathorlegacy.com/the-protection-myth-sufficient-surrender/#comment-88678</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s true that society can&#039;t (won&#039;t) handle the changes necessary if it was admitted that women are abused and raped by normal everyday men with no provocation.  Our society is supposed to be so safe, just, evolved.  The &#039;War on Terror&#039; makes me laugh.  It&#039;s not a war on my terror.
Also, major kudos for the machete analogy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s true that society can&#8217;t (won&#8217;t) handle the changes necessary if it was admitted that women are abused and raped by normal everyday men with no provocation.  Our society is supposed to be so safe, just, evolved.  The &#8216;War on Terror&#8217; makes me laugh.  It&#8217;s not a war on my terror.<br />
Also, major kudos for the machete analogy.</p>
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		<title>By: CSI: NY - Stella vs the Tropes &#124; the Hathor Legacy</title>
		<link>http://thehathorlegacy.com/the-protection-myth-sufficient-surrender/comment-page-1/#comment-88677</link>
		<dc:creator>CSI: NY - Stella vs the Tropes &#124; the Hathor Legacy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Sep 2008 02:49:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehathorlegacy.com/the-protection-myth-sufficient-surrender/#comment-88677</guid>
		<description>[...] when a woman distrusts a man&#8217;s advances after being violated and hurt by another man - especially when both are Men Like Us - the trope goes that her judgment has been warped by this prior aberration, and the new man gets [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] when a woman distrusts a man&#8217;s advances after being violated and hurt by another man &#8211; especially when both are Men Like Us &#8211; the trope goes that her judgment has been warped by this prior aberration, and the new man gets [...]</p>
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		<title>By: SunlessNick</title>
		<link>http://thehathorlegacy.com/the-protection-myth-sufficient-surrender/comment-page-1/#comment-88676</link>
		<dc:creator>SunlessNick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Mar 2008 17:04:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehathorlegacy.com/the-protection-myth-sufficient-surrender/#comment-88676</guid>
		<description>And I&#039;m really really sorry.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And I&#8217;m really really sorry.</p>
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		<title>By: Recalcitrant</title>
		<link>http://thehathorlegacy.com/the-protection-myth-sufficient-surrender/comment-page-1/#comment-88675</link>
		<dc:creator>Recalcitrant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Mar 2008 07:13:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://thehathorlegacy.com/the-protection-myth-sufficient-surrender/#comment-88675</guid>
		<description>You know, it&#039;s slightly ironic that I read this and acknowledged it but didn&#039;t really register it, the day before shit happened to me. At our core we want to be able to trust men. Or at least, I know I do. It&#039;s funny, I&#039;ve always been paranoid around men, always on guard. I find one I think I can trust and....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, it&#8217;s slightly ironic that I read this and acknowledged it but didn&#8217;t really register it, the day before shit happened to me. At our core we want to be able to trust men. Or at least, I know I do. It&#8217;s funny, I&#8217;ve always been paranoid around men, always on guard. I find one I think I can trust and&#8230;.</p>
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