I’m one of those people who checks every couple weeks to see if George R.R. Martin has finished the fifth book in the Song of Ice and Fire series. Martin is widely hailed as one of the best authors writing in fantasy today, and has a large following. I also occasionally browse the fan forums at Westeros.org. I’m not a huge forum poster. I mostly lurk to see if other people’s theories agree with mine. And I love the fact that there’s a space in which people are having detailed dialogue about the books.
However. Forum posters there have this annoying– and disturbing– habit of referring to women using the language from the books. (eg: “The wench needs a good ride.”) It’s fairly ludicrous to have a bunch of fans using that sort of language on the boards without a sense of irony. Who uses the word “wench” in 2007? This language is all over the books, but that doesn’t make it appropriate. I think it’s obvious from the way Martin writes his female characters that the language he uses in the book derives from the fact that he’s writing about a violent war from a pseudo-historical perspective, and has a particular interest in debunking the chivalry myth. I’m pretty sure he doesn’t go around in real life thinking that way about women. Since each chapter is told from a different POV, it’s also clear that not everyone in Westeros feels that way either. With many dark characters, you have about a 50/50 or more chance that the chapter you’re reading is narrated by someone who’s a huge jerk. Therefore it blows my mind to see outdated misogynistic language tossed around casually on the boards by fanboy-types. I have noticed a few female (or intelligent, logical male) posters admonishing others for this type of crap, but far too often the community appears to let it slide.
In my latest trip to the Westeros boards, I noticed a disturbing trend. Everyone has POVs they like and dislike. But what’s with the overwhelming hate for Brienne? The character Brienne is a female knight. Oh sure, you think, one of those. But wait. Because it’s Martin, this isn’t going to be one of those cute girl-with-a-sword stories. Brienne is described as a muscular, homely woman, larger than most men. She’d have to be to handle a sword, realistically, and it’s refreshing to see an author pick up on that for once. She is doggedly devoted to chivalry in a world going to hell all around her. She’s naive, true, but the character’s purpose seems to be to serve as a spot of light in the increasingly bloody series. She’s also there to be a foil to Jaime Lannister, the bad boy character who insults her constantly yet feels a strange connection to her. And Brienne stubbornly insists on being seen as a knight despite the fact that everyone thinks she’s a joke. I really enjoy the character.
But there’s a surprisingly vicious amount of Brienne hate out there. And it seems like a lot of it is based simply upon the fact that Brienne is ugly. Some fans would like to see Jaime get over his superficiality and end up with Brienne, for instance, but if someone posts something to this effect, the fanboys will often freak out. There is a disconnect between the way male characters described by Martin as ugly (and there are lots) are regarded by fans, and how Brienne is regarded. To illustrate how ridiculous the bias is, consider the example of the POV character Tyrion.
Tyrion is a vastly popular character. He is also a dwarf, with a giant mass of scar tissue where his nose used to be. In a recent book, he was placed in an arranged marriage to a 13-year-old girl who wouldn’t consummate the marriage because she was terrified of how ugly he was. I have actually seen many posters say, “OMG I hate Sansa! What a ___. How could she do that to Tyrion he’s all kinds of awesome, I hope she gets raped by a ____.” And then they’ll be like, “I think Martin should hook Tyrion up with (insert beautiful female character) or (insert beautiful female character).” Yet if someone mentions Brienne hooking up with someone, anyone, there’s an outcry of fan eeeeew that derails entire threads.
Yeah. Because every beautiful woman wants to have sex with a noseless dwarf just because it’s your favorite character. But an unattractive woman doesn’t deserve love. It’s that old double standard again, and it’s getting tired.
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What’s the Fantasy-Lingo male equivalent of “wench”?
(Just so you’ll have something to retort with…)
A.R.Yngve(Quote) (Reply)
I think you’re looking at a phenomenon from the wrong angle.
Tyrion is likable because he’s incredibly clever and gets a lot of good one-liners. Plus, he has chutzpah the size of a small continent. He is a joy to read because he’s got a big brain and a sharp tongue on him, and he’s usually been at the center of a lot of exciting, action-filled plots.
Brienne likability is limited to certain ideals that don’t appeal to everyone. She’s rather dumb, she lacks the wit to say anything clever, and she’s stupidly devoted to two people: one, being my second most-hated character of the entire series (Catelyn), and the other, one of my favourite characters in the entire series (Jaime) who treats her like shit. She’s not intelligent, makes bad decisions, and has low self esteem. Her POV is a pain to read because her voice is pretty dull, and this is further exacerbated by the fact that there’s not much action in her chapters. I think she’s a necessary POV, and there’s things I like about the character (mostly the break from the stereotype), but I don’t like *her*.
If Brienne were intelligent and had a modicum of self esteem, she would be, by far, my favourite character.
As it is, my absolute favourite character of the entire series is a female who’s physically unattractive, no one’s romantic interest, and is not by any means a passive female: Arya. (Actually, many friends have speculated that I hate Catelyn and Sansa so much *because* I identify so closely with Arya.)
Sure, there might be some people who hate Brienne because she’s ugly, but you’re making blanket generalisations without any evidence supporting your claims about their reasoning. I’ve told you why *I* like one and dislike the other. I’d be interested to see how many people tell you they hate Brienne for the reasons you cite.
Perhaps you could run some polls for each character, to see how many people like or hate each one. I bet you’ll find a lot of Cersei haters (she’s gorgeous and a romantic interest), and a lot of Arya fans (she’s ugly and not a romantic interest).
Sayuri(Quote) (Reply)
I think someone mentioned upward in the thread how there aren’t a lot of Arya haters. As a homicidal nine-year-old, she’s a unique female character. But then, as a nine-year-old she is not sexualized in the way the other female characters are.
I want to talk about Arya and Sansa in the future. I find there are very few fans who like both Arya and Sansa’s chapters (I am one of them). I don’t have any scientific method here, just general anecdotal evidence. Mostly Sansa fascinates me because, once you stop rolling your eyes and skipping her chapters, you realize she’s actually well-written. By this I mean, Martin has written an almost entirely passive character, whose views are so naive that it’s fun to try to read between the lines and figure out what’s really happening. It’s frustrating to read Sansa because she rarely does anything, yet she is undeniably well-written. Therefore I enjoy her chapters. I like to imagine he’s going somewhere with them, maybe he’s going to pull a Malta Vestrit with the character (Robin Hobb’s Liveship series), and it’s going to be really good. I hope.
I can enjoy Sansa’s chapters without wanting to hang out and have a beer with her. I wouldn’t want to hang out with Brienne either, because she doesn’t have a sense of humor. But I do find her interesting because Martin chose to veer away from the stereotypical “female warrior” archetype.
Duru Antilles(Quote) (Reply)
I think it’s extremely unfair to condemn the moderation of an entire message board without actually experiencing it for yourself (for more than five minutes). The board in question is the best-moderated site I have known on the net compared to other well known sites I have been involved with for years.
Isis(Quote) (Reply)
That would likely be zero. As she pointed out, they are often unconscious motivators for some people, as we’ve noted in fandoms aside from just this one board.
Again, as was said in response to someone who made similar points to yours, no one else took Duru to be saying that everyone who dislikes the character is wrong; she is saying that some people are disliking her for very gendered and superficial reasons, and let’s talk about that. That’s all.
Criticism is not condemnation. It’s a learning opportunity. I actually got some constructive criticism about my points in this very thread from someone offsite, and learned something I didn’t know. I’m glad of it.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Duru,
IMHO, some of the most ‘frustrating’ characters in ASoIaF are the best written ones, such as Sansa and Catelyn. I’m not a big fan of them for various reasons, yet I consider them among the best characters because they’re so well-written and realistic.
I like Brienne. When I ‘met’ Brienne for the first time, I was like, “Finally! The answer to all those ridiculous women-warrior in fantasy.” I like her because she’s very realistic with her awkwardness, her physical appearance, her reactions. For me, she’s a great character.
I find it utterly disgusting when people advocate rape as some sort of punishment (which is one of the major reasons why I absolutely hate Terry Goodkind and mock him to no end).
BetaCandy, redcandle17,
In the boards, we get people like that several times, but majority of them are ignored, mocked, if not downright sniped at by the more intelligent and sensible members of the board.
I’ve always found the boards as a sensible place for discussion. They’re bound to be several immature posters there as it’s a big board, but I just ignore them and don’t let them distarct me for the merits of the board or the discussion at hand.
The Wolf Maid(Quote) (Reply)
I really don’t think there’s a connection to romantic interest and the amount of hated a character receives. The most hated characters in ASOIAF are, probably, Catelyn, Sansa, and Cersei. Possibly Brienne, but this seems to be hit or miss, or highly dependant on what circles you travel in. I was shocked to find such a large hub of Brienne haters in Westeros.org (though, of course, in the wrong WAY), since every single other community I’ve found devoted to the books seem to adore Brienne … admittedly more from her interaction with Jaime to her as a person. Apologies for the Brienne aside, but I find it hard to call her a “most hated,” because I really don’t see much UNIVERSAL hate for her, but rather some particularly vitriolic packets of people who dislike for the wrong reasons.
From my wandering the forums of the world, it seems to me that Cat, Sansa, and Cersei have it the worst of the cast.
Catelyn, of course, is a largely romantically unavailable character … though I believe there’s enough fodder from her childhood to incite the imaginations of those who want to sexualize her. Pursued by several men, dueled for, lusted after in agony from afar for years … But women and men alike universally despise her.
Sansa is a blossoming, sought after, beautiful, passive, perfect little lady in the most “desirable” time of her life, and is presented as such by Martin. In fact, Sansa is the most representative of that age old perfect female standard in the books. Yet she’s hated by most men and women alike, mostly FOR her passive, girlish, naive nature.
Cersei is the most sexual female character in the series, as well as being one of the most beautiful — at least in the top five. As with the other two, men AND women both completely despise the character. I constantly think that a ruthless, powerful, confident, emotional matriarch should at least have some sort of cult following, but it seems she … doesn’t.
These characters present three completely different pictures of womanhood — Catelyn is strong in a quiet way, a mother eagle sort of way, protecting her children and pictured as a matron, but one of iron will. Sansa is passive and naive, a dreamy, sheltered little thing who never seems to learn her lesson and builds her worth completely in the perceptions of others. And Cersei is a machiavellian, cunning, high-strung beauty who does whatever she can to get what she wants.
I can’t agree that it’s all about the sexualization of women in fiction because that seems far, far too easy. Insofar as I can see, these are the three most universally hated characters (and the only one of them I feel even a passing dislike for is Catelyn’s early character) across almost every demographic, and I find it so curious why.
They’re all wonderfully well written, complex, deep, human, sympathetic (yes, even Cersei, after AFFC) … they do have their flaws, but those flaws seem to condridict one another. And there IS something in the fact that they’re women, I know that there is, even though men and women alike dislike them.
The fact that the only characters who can compare to the level of hate they receive are ALSO women — Brienne and Lysa, from my perception — just proves there’s something going on. Honestly, I really believe sexualizing the issue on such lowest common denominator terms isn’t the right way to approach the issue.
Rosa Aquafire(Quote) (Reply)
I rather like Brienne. (Although not among the sharpest of the major characters, IMHO she doesn’t seem so much “dumb” as naïve and single-minded.) Mind you, I do find Arya and Dany more interesting…but I’m surprised to find out that there’s that much Brienne-hate in the fan forums.
I don’t like Sansa (prissy little snot) much. Ditto Lysa (pathetic creep); but I don’t hate either of them. I maintain that Jaime is a putz. And I’m not fond of Tyrion or Cersei, but I’m beginning to develop a grudging respect for both.
The only characters whom I really despised—the big butcher and the petulant squeal; hope I haven’t spoiled anything—are both dead anyway, so it doesn’t matter.
Qit el-Remel(Quote) (Reply)
I really really like Brianne, and I can’t wait to see what happens to her… oh, whenever the sixth book comes out. grr…
Cersei? I can’t exactly like her… she IS the villainess, and… looks entirely too much like me in her bullying attitude. Also, she’s none too bright — Tyrion’s reaction to growing paranoia is far more admirable. Still, the series would not be the same without her, and I would miss her a lot.
Catelyn? I’m not sure I ever had any reaction to her. Seriously, I got Arya’s annoyance, but it didn’t seem enough to be upset about. And now Catelyn is broken.
Lysa is broken, but seems more like she deserves to be, than poor Cat.
Arya’s not broken yet, but it’s a close thing.
Sansa? First book I wanted her to get a sharp kick in the ass. Now it seems like she’s gotten it, I’m far more sympathetic to her — she’s got a world to learn about.
Dany too, needed a sharp kick in the tooshie. Now that she’s had it, I find her much more appealing.
I really like Tyrion, he’s compelling and wicked sharp.
Tywin? For all he’s smart, he’s not smart enough to use the tools at hand (like, say, Tyrion).
I’m really enjoying the character growth and development here — I hope Brianne gets her share, eventually.
Blood and Vengeance seem to be taking such a large role on the stage.
Do remember, children, men get raped too. I’ve even heard it said that more rapes happen to men that women in America, each year. [note carefully the syntax of that sentence. mashing up the words is not recommended].
Miako(Quote) (Reply)
And Rape isn’t only a female issue, as you pointed out – but that’s also something the feminism is about. NO one should be subjected to domination by another, whether they are a child, a woman or a man.
On NPR there was an interview by a man who’d been in prison when he was a teen, stuck in a grown up’s prison, and was promptly drugged, raped, and taken as a possession by the older inmates. He’d written a book about his experiences and recovery. But the most horrifying thing he talked about was how “accepted” it was by the gaurds and administrators that rape was considered part of the punishment. He’d stolen from a store, but hadn’t done anything life-threatening to anyone else.
I think rape of anyone, for any “reason” is abhorrent.
Gategrrl(Quote) (Reply)
Well, duh. Just because we don’t discuss it in threads where it’s not relevant doesn’t mean we’re unaware. And without “mashing” up your words, I have to wonder why you felt impelled to bring up the fact that men get raped in a thread about men and boys wishing rape on female characters as a punishment for the female characters not sexually servicing the male characters they feel they should. In your mind, the two issues connect how?
I find it very hard to imagine that more than 25% of American men have been raped, yet they haven’t started a protest movement about it (nor joined in ours). I find it rather easy to imagine that a small minority of American men feel so confused whenever something’s not All About Them that they think, like seven-year-olds, they’ll just make a false statistical claim on the internet and demand everyone feel more sorry for them than the real victims.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
Thank you betacandy for misreading that.
Seriously. Take a look again and try not to take the converse, which I explicitly stated was not factual. What I wrote is true, what you read is false.
It’s a pet peeve of mine.
I had a whole comment up about capture marriages, but I’m going to wait to post that until I reread some summaries.
Oh, and thank you so very much for deciding to tell me what gender I am! It’s so very impressive of you! What other Lies and Slanders do you have Handy?
Seriously, cut the gender essentialist crapola out. And forgive my snark, it’s kindly meant.
Miako(Quote) (Reply)
@gategrrl
What if both participants in a rape are non-consenting parties? (yes, crazy and stupid shit happens).
Miako(Quote) (Reply)
@betacandy
I may just be reading the summaries, but it really does seem like we only get Tyrion’s point of view on how disgusted Sansa is with him. It really seems like it might be more a case of grief and general pique (she could be more refusing to go along with the whole Lannister plan).
She’s twelve, and is being used here as a foil to make Tyrion seem better (sorta. he is still cheating on her). Again, being twelve and with a mother like Catelyn, I’m not so sure that she would know that the marriage is supposed to be consummated (as purely a way to ‘prove’ that the marriage happened).
If she was fifteen, I should by damn say that she knew her duty — and that she should know that whatever disobedience she shows, she is likely to get raped. That’s just brutal facts, and I’d be saying the same about Arya. (and this is something i’d expect for any medieval setting. one consummation per marriage. that’s how the thing works).
It’s the fact that she’s twelve that makes the contemporary morality of mating with her suspect.
If she were fifteen, and we had textual context to assume that she was more upset with Lannisters in general rather than Tyrion and associated ugliness, I’d be likely to assume that the resistance was pro forma, and that the rape would be analogous to a “capture marriage,” where the woman feels obligated by society to resist. At that point, Tyrion’s societal obligation to rape her is paired with Sansa’s obligation to resist. But both sides are being socially appropriate.
Society has the morals that it can afford, and medieval marriages were contracts, pure and simple, strategic alliances between families. As such, the consummation would not be up for ‘negotiation’ — that would entail leaving a contract unsigned.
In medieval societies, the thought was of courtly love wherein someone pined for someone who they could not marry (think Dante and Beatrice).
I’m thinking that Martin has changed some of the medieval aspects of love, so that we can consider the characters more identifiable.
But in a true medieval context, Tyrion appears to be following his own morality. Sansa may or may not be stupidly rejecting his advances, but it certainly isn’t immoral for her to do so. If she were say five years older, I should say that her not consummating the marriage might be judged immoral (particularly because it fizzles the opportunity for an alliance between Stark and Lannister).
I think we should be pretty clear from Martin’s books that rape, even during a marriage, is immoral. However, that does not say that an unwilling consummation is considered immoral (or to go further, is not culturally accepted).
Maybe if I go look back at the summaries for Catelyn/Cierce’s earlier chapters it might help.
Miako(Quote) (Reply)
Miako, at no point did I assess your gender. I was assessing the gender of those who would claim more men than women are raped.
And I didn’t interpret what you said – I merely wondered aloud why you felt the need to bring it up in a thread where it’s not relevant because we’re talking about males wishing rape on females.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
aha. so you were just further derailing the discussion.
forgive my hypersensitivity.
Miako(Quote) (Reply)
No, I rather thought you were. While we’re all well-aware men get raped, it was specifically female rape being discussed here. Why you felt the need to bring up male rape, I couldn’t figure out.
Jennifer Kesler(Quote) (Reply)
One other thing about if Sansa was fifteen — Tyrion raping her on her wedding night would be protecting her honor. They would not be assuming that Tyrion was just too much of a ‘puss’ to take his wife — they would be assuming that she wasn’t a virgin. Again, this is just my take on things, and it is undoubtedly influenced by my knowledge of places where capture-marriage and arranged marriages were popular.
It is fairly clear that rape is not fun, and is not considered societally appropriate even within the bounds of marriage (imho from a modern perspective makes the rape all the worse). However, the specific details of ‘consummating the marriage’ make for a /different/ situation than a rape.
In real life Rennaisance, there was a woman who was raped when she was 14. Her family’s response was to ask the rapist to marry her. It was only after he ‘refused to do his duty’ that they got angry at him.
Miako(Quote) (Reply)
@betacandy
At ease, if you will. I’ve the stomach for fighting, but not the heart — until and unless you’re smiling at the other side of the ‘net.
Miako(Quote) (Reply)
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