Why, if you think harassment is flattering, you are stupid

Melpomene, thank you for pointing that out – I was going to post, in response that I (white, fat girl) have always been really squicked by white guys catcalling/talking me up on the street, but never by men of color…and then I realized that, living in the upper Midwest and being white, I have *never* been catcalled by a group of men of color I didn’t know.

One-on-0ne, sure, “smile, baby” “Let me carry that, do you have a man at home?” Even, when I used to dye my hair blue “Can I touch that hair?” All the time. That’s how it is in my neighborhood, and it’s generally pretty friendly, no negative pushback if I say no gracefully. (Not that it’s not intrusive and sometimes rude…but not threatening or extra time-consuming)

But the white boys feel the need to rev the engine on their SUV and try to talk me up out the window when I’m stopped at a red light on my bike, or follow me out of the bar to have a talk with me at 11 pm when I’m headed home. It’s always threatening. Even one-on-one it feels creepy to me. I wonder if it’s just my personal experience talking, or the specific circumstances (car -> bike is a whole power imbalance of its own) or if the underlying race/power dynamic trumps the sea of racist bullshit we all swim in.

Any chance I could get a copy of the suggestions you sent to Wemblee, BetaCandy? I’m in the same boat as Wemblee – writer, heading towards film, nerd, etc – and all suggestions or tips would be exponentially appreciated! Thanks a ton!

Black Thirteen, it’s a matter of situation. If a co-worker talks to me, it’s not exactly uninvited since work happens by communication. If I go into a bar – the nature of bars being places for strangers to chat – I don’t infer aggression if a man speaks to me. If you attend a church and a fellow congregation member talks to you, again, there’s no sense of aggression because what you have in common invites conversation.

But when I’m just trying to walk down the street or take a bus, that doesn’t invite conversation. A man can still successfully approach a woman under those conditions if he’s aware that the approach is aggressive and compensates with extra politeness or reassurance that his intention isn’t to annoy or harm me in any way.

As for your final question, no, that’s not what I was suggesting. But it’s true that men are going to be perceived as aggressive more readily than women – by anyone, including other men. This is because men commit by far the majority of violent crimes and because we have a legal system that is both racist and misogynistic in dealing with rape. It’ll take fixing a whole lot of things in our society before that imbalance is corrected enough for men to feel intimidated by women as often as we feel intimidated by men.

Someone has to make the move.

Says who?

I’m a chick. When I was single, I didn’t work with anyone I wanted to sleep with; I didn’t go to bars; and I still didn’t want Random Desperate Guy hitting on me. If I wanted a date, *I* would put myself in a conversation-appropriate situation: a party, a bar, an online dating service. If you’re a single guy looking for a date…do the same thing. Join a book club; go to parties; put a profile up on OKC. In the end, though, I don’t really care–it’s not my responsibility to help desperate men get laid.

And feminism aside? That’s what a guy approaching a strange woman on the street or bus looks like: desperate. Like a guy who doesn’t have enough of a life to meet women like a *normal* person.

Like, in other words, a giant loser.

Just so ya know.

Unrelatedly: cool user name, love the DT series.

Black Thirteen, yes it is warped. The patriarchy made it that way in its attempt to lay women completely under the control of men. Go complain to the patriarchy. You didn’t respond to my comment in which I explained all that in detail. You have to correct the “rape culture” we have before you can have women and men equally comfortable meeting one another. And if you’re in the camp that believes that’s not possible because rape is unfortunately natural and all that, then go complain to evolution or God or random chance, as per your beliefs.

Why in the world are you asking FEMINISTS to address an imbalance (women having good reason to be cautious of strange men) that misogynists created? Because you lack the nerve to go against the patriarchy and want to blame someone else for their mistakes and your misfortunes?

If you want results, lay the blame where it belongs.

And BTW, I don’t know who these “feminists” are that you claim think your name means a penis, but my first thought was Rook, the card game. Realizing that was too obscure to be likely, I still figured it was some sort of game reference.

Black Thirteen, yes it is warped. The patriarchy made it that way in its attempt to lay women completely under the control of men.

I was speaking of the “Men are not to talk to women in public” situation. Men didn’t do that. It’s what you’re advocating.

Why in the world are you asking FEMINISTS to address an imbalance (women having good reason to be cautious of strange men) that misogynists created?

Because, by continuing to propagate it, the feminists are helping the imbalance? For the record, you and I both know that “stranger rape” is not where the majority of rapes come from, so being wary of every single man you don’t know isn’t going to prevent it.

As far as approach goes, men created the “men approach women” setup. Women have continued it just as much as men have.

Because you lack the nerve to go against the patriarchy and want to blame someone else for their mistakes and your misfortunes?

I’m not sure what you mean here. Go against, related to what, specifically? Or, rather, to DO what?

And BTW, I don’t know who these “feminists” are that you claim think your name means a penis, but my first thought was Rook, the card game. Realizing that was too obscure to be likely, I still figured it was some sort of game reference.

Well, as it was put to me: Obviously, we’ve all heard the stereotype of the well-endowed black male. Ergo, they apparently took it as “Black (and) Thirteen (inches)”.

It’s from a book, actually. By Stephen King.

Still brought me a lot of laughter that they took it the wrong way, though.

Well, yeah. But making a move does not necessarily mean coming up and talking to someone you don’t know–like I said below, there are other ways to meet people if you want to date.

Well, isn’t the entire thing of dating, getting to know someone you don’t know, in order to see if you can have a relationship with them?

I mean, I admit, I don’t know jack and/or shit about dating, so I’m making a few assumptions when it comes to it.

Well, yeah. It’s supposed to be–if someone wants a date *and* isn’t willing to go through the normal channels of society, then…yeah, desperate.

Well, I just figure some people don’t have those social circles, some people don’t have the time or money to do bars and parties, etcetera.

I work. I have money. And yet I still managed to meet a boy or five without bothering random passers-by.

Well, it tends to be easier for women to meet men than the inverse.

Also, and this deserves some emphasis: *you* made the choice to spend so much time working and thus have no time to date. Your choice; your problem. Neither I, nor any other woman out there, is at all obligated to solve that problem for you.

That’s not why I don’t date. I’m just illustrating that some people don’t have time to go out to parties and bars. Also, really, once you’re past the age of 21-23, the whole “bar scene” is highly inappropriate, and full of people 5-7+ years younger than yourself.

I spend so much time working because, well, the economy in the US sucks, and one kinda has no choice, if they wish to keep paying their bills, eating, and also having the money to have the things they like/want.

And money doesn’t make someone a loser, but it also doesn’t *keep* them from being one. Lack of manners, on the other hand, will certainly qualify you.

Oh, I’m quite polite when I’m required to be.

Neither do I. Thus: book clubs, martial arts classes, roleplaying games, meeting friends of friends, joining an online dating service…I could go on. There isn’t a binary here. Your choices are not restricted to “crowds and booze” or “bugging a random hot chick on the subway.”

I’m pretty sure, that, despite my love of movies and video games, I’m not quite nerdy enough for D&D. Online dating services are an incredible scam. One so brilliant that I wish I’d thought of them 15 years ago, because I’d be sitting on a computer chair made of solid gold. Though, a little sick in my opinion, to sit there and rake in cash via the insecurity and loneliness of your fellow humans.

I dunno. I just think most of the “generic suggestions” are just that. Generic, and not really relevant to the real world.

…whoa. Took me a while to get that one. I haven’t had my coffee today.

Hahaha. Well, I got yelled at it for it, and it provided me much entertainment.

This is getting old quickly. This post is about STREET HARASSMENT, not talking to people in public.

Well, then why give the command to men (as if they are children) of “Do not speak unless spoken to”? It doesn’t say “Don’t harass unless harassed first”. It simply says “speak”.

Your whole point, as far as I can discern, is WHAT IF MEN CAN’T GET LAID? OMG, WHAT A TRAGEDY THAT WOULD BE? We’ve heard it all before.

Feel free to ASK for me to clarify. Do NOT feel free to TELL me what I’m saying/thinking.

It’s incredibly rude, and downright ridiculous to tell someone what they’re thinking, in order to tell them they’re wrong for thinking it.

Especially considering you’re wrong. Even when I illustrate, in advance, to hopefully prevent this all-too-common conclusion jump, (by pointing out the fact that I. Do. Not. Fuck.), you still go ahead and make the assumption anyway. Kudos, really.

If you’re going to debate with/speak to me, I kindly ask you refrain from attempting to exercise your psychic abilities. I have no problem with you inquiring as to my intent, if you feel you are uncertain, but I do have a problem with you assuming my intent, then basing your counter-arguments off of that.

I apologize if that comes off as too harsh, but I really dislike it when people assume my thoughts, and then proceed to yell at me because of something they assume I’m doing, when I’m not.

My first thought was roulette. I wonder what that says about me.

That either you go to Vegas too much, not enough, or have watched the Ocean’s series of films too much.

Just when you’re “required” to be? When aren’t people supposed to be polite? I know there are times when it’s ineffective, but if we’re going by sheer bulk hours, I’d say it’s more like there are times when impoliteness is called for; polite should be the standard operating procedure, not something that’s brought out only when absolutely necessary.

If I’m at work, I’m polite. Politeness would be required of me when dealing with my clients.

If I’m outside of work, I am incredibly abrupt with people, bordering on outright abrasive.

If someone doesn’t like that, they aren’t exactly legally required to speak to me for whatever reason.

Really? I know 7 married couples who met online, and it’s where my mother met the man she’s been seeing for two years. Now a couple of those weren’t on dating sites, but I’d hardly call it a scam or irrelevant to the real world. Just my observation.

I’ve lately started preparing a long blog entry about dating sites, and how much of an interesting, yet very clever scam they are.

Just to quickly highlight, how about the fact that conveniently, when one’s subscription is about to expire, that individual will get lots of enticing emails from people they’d very much be interested in…that don’t exist?

Or perhaps the complete imbalance between the sexes on such sites? They’re largely intended to capitalize on the fact that a lot of men are really stupid. When you have a 3 to 1 or higher ratio of men to women, you’re going to have a lot of men paying money, and continually paying money, trying to date these women (that may or may not be employees of the dating site company [Match.com has had various legal troubles because of this]) that, due to the nature of a “seller’s market”, as it were, are going to be incredibly picky.

Or, in the case of keeping profiles long after the members have left, you find men attempting to hit on women that aren’t even there to be hit on, and paying to do it.

It adds up. Like I said, I wish I’d thought of it before everyone else did.

But all of that is neither here nor there.

I still figured it was some sort of game reference.

My first thought was roulette. I wonder what that says about me.

Oh, I’m quite polite when I’m required to be.

Just when you’re “required” to be? When aren’t people supposed to be polite? I know there are times when it’s ineffective, but if we’re going by sheer bulk hours, I’d say it’s more like there are times when impoliteness is called for; polite should be the standard operating procedure, not something that’s brought out only when absolutely necessary.

Online dating services are an incredible scam.

I dunno. I just think most of the “generic suggestions” are just that. Generic, and not really relevant to the real world.

Really? I know 7 married couples who met online, and it’s where my mother met the man she’s been seeing for two years. Now a couple of those weren’t on dating sites, but I’d hardly call it a scam or irrelevant to the real world. Just my observation.

I did ban him, and want to explain it clearly to anyone else who might for have legit questions about the article, or who might disagree with us for cogent reasons.

In another article, I pointed out that the definition of harassment is talking (or engaging) AT someone rather than with them. That’s what his comments felt like to me. Let me break it down simply.

The point of this article is that harassment and public flirtation are two different things. His point was that in saying you can’t harass, we must really mean you can’t publicly flirt. It’s such a stark contradiction to what was really said that I almost didn’t let the comment through in the first place.

The only way to draw the conclusion he drew is if you totally can’t tell, or don’t want to tell, the difference between harassment and public flirtation..

As the comments progressed, you could tell he was reading our responses, but not listening. He wasn’t learning anything – he was just here to correct us females on our misguided thinking.

In short, he is banned because he was talking at us, not with us.

In his continued submitted comments which are going in the ban pile under all his new sock identities, he keeps harping on the idea that because he’s not dating, we can’t claim his big concern here is about preserving male dating strategies. This, too, entirely misses the point. I never claimed he was concerned about getting HIMSELF laid. I think his point is that we females have no right removing male privileges – as if men have earned the right to call out remarks about our breasts as you pass by them, and this important right must be preserved or we will enter an era of anti-freedom.

Bellatrys, the guy you described who put you down at parties to show how much he liked you? Yep, that’s why I didn’t date in high school. I thought guys hated me and saw me as an asexual eyesore. Turned out their attempts to make me defer to them were their idea of how men attract women. I’d link to the article on how the misogynistic jerk who gets the girl is a myth, but I’m too lazy.

Genevieve, thanks for sharing that! I hate banning people, and it takes up a lot of headspace for me to make that decision. It’s always a relief to have confirmation I made the right call.

Turned out their attempts to make me defer to them were their idea of how men attract women.

Something has gone horribly, horribly wrong in recent times w/r/t the biological wiring of the human male. (I blame it on the Vespan Wasp-Women’s plans for galactic conquest, personally.)

But seriously, not only is there this increasing eroticization of a “femininity” which is entirely artificial *and* unhealthy – neither conducive to species survival, any more than breeding varieties of dogs who need c-sections to make it because their heads are too large/their hips too narrow for normal delivery – but there is this incredible disconnect that frankly, I don’t really see before the 20th century.

In all other species of social animals that have courtship as a part of the mating process, the males try to 1) impress the females with their healthy good looks and talents and/or parenting skills, and 2) drive off the rival males.

Instead, nowadays, at least in America, men try to fight off the females and impress the other males with their verbal skills and muscularity…

Maybe we did get Screwfly’d already, and we never realized it.

I do not care why you can’t get laid–except, frankly, that it probably *is* your fault. (Um, and if you’re SO BUSY WORKING that you can’t meet women, how is it that you have time to post long rambling responses on Internet blogs, hmmm?) I don’t do pity fucks, you don’t get points for angsty backstory, and if you bother me on the street or on the subway or anywhere else, I’m going to try and rip you a new one.

Izzy, the thing that baffles me most – and again, some form of Screwfly Solution interference seems a logical explanation – is, do any men seriously think that a woman is likely to say “Yes! Loverboy! I want to date you and fuck you and marry you and have your babies! Let me drop everything I was doing and run away with you – or better yet, toss me over your shoulder and run away with me!” to a random guy she is being pestered by in some completely inappropriate location? I mean, OBVIOUSLY IT ISN”T WORKING, since these dudes keep complaining about how they’re not getting laid, but WHY WOULD THEY EXPECT IT TO IN THE FIRST PLACE??!?!1?

I mean, would any of them pay attention to, and then accept, the offer of some random guy who came up with them trying to sell them a stake in some miracle invention or treasure-mining company at the bus stop, tried to get them to invest a huge amount and take a big risk, in such a situation? Of course they wouldn’t. (Well, unless they’re part of the disproportionately-male pool of victims of online spam scams…) Would they go home with that random scruffy guy who wants to show them his miracle invention to prove to them that it’s worth investing in, or would their Hannibal Lecter/Jeffrey Dahmer alarm bells be going off like crazy?

Or, if some random scruffy, lumpen woman, unkempt, possibly unwashed – or at least looking like it – came up to them on the bus and offered to date them, wanted to bring them home, how many of these guys who say they’d like to be sexually harrassed, hur, hur, would accept, and how many would freak out – especially if she started rubbing them, or talking in suggestive ways to the amusement/embarrassment of everyone present?

I think we can safely say that very, very few of these entitled Privilegeboys would take up any of these offers, and those who are gullible enough/naive enough to do so are good candidates for Darwin Awards all round. And most of these Privilege boys like Mr. Banninated there would agree – in these scenarios, but can’t understand why we who happen to be female would feel the same way w/r/t to their approaching us.

As for “ZOMG! now I daren’t even SPEAK to any woman lest she think I’m harassing her, life is so UNFAIR!!!1!” – well, it’s really simple, hetguys. There are two questions you need to ask yourself before making your innocent approach:

1) would I say this to another man (and in this fashion)? Seriously, if you’re just chatting about the weather or other local conditions, in a perfectly normal tone of voice, ie “So, did you hear about the sinkhole on Main Street?” most of us can tell that you’re just being sociable and not being a creepy hitter-upon. We’re not that stupid (and if you think we are, why do you want to spend time with us?) But if the comment, or the tone of voice, is such that you’d be mortified if the “chick” you were talking to turned out to be a long-haired dude, then yes, you’re being a creepy harasser. (and you do realize this, because you wouldn’t be embarrassed to be caught talking that way to a guy if you didn’t know it deep down.)

This also goes for touching, btw. If you wouldn’t touch a strange guy – or a policewoman! – this way, then no, it’s NOT just an “innocent tap on the shoulder”, it’s a dominance display and creepy and invasive.

2) Would it seem creepy/menacing coming at you from another man, or from a woman you found objectionable? IOW, if it would, then there is clearly something more than neutral socializing in the words/tone/gestures. If you wouldn’t want to be on the receiving end of it, then yes, it is coming across as a sexualized power-play. Don’t do it.

I manage, nearly every day, to refrain from sexually harassing both women and men that I find attractive, in public venues of all kinds. And yet I also somehow manage to make polite casual conversation and even to give compliments on outfits sometimes, without giving offense! And I’m a nerd’s nerd, problems with social cues and all. If I can manage, so can you! (And if you can’t, then clearly you are not old enough or competent to be allowed out of the house without a minder.)

Oh, and that “polite when I have to be” business? Tells us everything we need to know about that guy.

Word.

(See, I can be brief sometimes!)

The thing that gets me most, though, is that most of the guys I know who act like this are perfectly capable of restraining themselves and behaving themselves in other circumstances.

Some aren’t, but the Venn sets of “Nice Guys Who Are Really Sexist Assholes” and “Cat Piss Men In The Comic Store” and “Stoner Oafs Who Are Always In Bar Fights” has a really small overlap – I mean, there is a HUUUUUGE population of the NiceGuys(TM) out there who are clean-cut men with well-paying jobs, some of them on Wall Street, some of them doctors and lawyers, who can completely restrain themselves when they have to – as Mr. Banninated above, assuming he isn’t lying about having a good job and being able to be polite in public to people in positions of power over him.

(This comes down to something that’s been identified in primate social behavior, btw – there’s a great article by a famous biologist, one of the guys who did some of the foundational work on how stress is bad for human health – debunking the “males will be males, they can’t help themselves due to testosterone” in which he references a study that found that when the lower monkeys on the social run in a group of males were given testosterone shots they *did* get more aggressive – but only towards those still lower down than themselves! They carefully *only* picked on the littler monkeys, never against the bigger, established alpha males. Testosterone didn’t turn their brains off, nor their capability of making social distinctions when it came time to pick targets for their aggression. This is what we see with Mr. Banninated and his ilk, and why they always go after the female bloggers for saying exactly the same critical things of games and books and statues as male bloggers like frex Chris of ISB, and with the sexualized viciousness that we have seen. It’s a primate fang-baring contest, and they *know* we’re – according to the rest of the pack – the ones it’s safe to go after, by virtue of our girlparts. We’re not *allowed* to fight back, and no one will come to our defense, because no one ever did, chivalry be damned. Only we’re changing the rules now and they don’t like it.)

I’ve worked for and with all too many of them, I’ve read far too many accounts of harassment by law school boys and clergymen and tenured professors with families and upstanding members of the Better Business Bureau on other blogs. Sometimes they end up in the newspaper like Charles Stewart with all their neighbors going “gee, he seemed like such a wonderful guy,” but mostly they get away with their sexist asshole behavior.

Yes, we who are fen see more of it in fandom, because that’s who we socialize with most. But I’m not buying this “nerds will be nerds” excuse for the SDCC assholes I’m seeing all over the net: for one thing, I know waaay too many polite, friendly, unjerkish non-asshole but totally nerdy and eccentric fanboys. (Like the ones who ran *our* local comic-con, which was a rockin’ good family-friendly time.)

The ones who are asshole NiceGuys are just reflecting the wider American macho culture, the one that we see accepted and celebrated on mainstream TV shows and in mainstream novels every damn day.

See also “I Never Had A Date In High School, So Women Owe Me.” Ew.

And yet none of these oh-so pitiful entitled Hug and Boob and Date demanders EVER feel obligated to grant *themselves* to women who didn’t get dates in high school and who *didn’t* grow up to be Swans but are still by their standards Ugly Ducklings – Double Standards R Us!

FYI – for anyone reading this thread who doesn’t also read Nothing New (my blog), I got a series of stupid emails from Mr. Banninated which I mounted over the fireplace in accord with my longstanding Troll Cave policy (trolls get hung up in stocks to laugh at) and if he does show up (he hasn’t yet done so, whether from lack of time or lack of nerve I cannot say), my regulars are by a strong majority voting to ban him preemptively for the crime of being boooooRING – see, we like to kick funny/stupid trolls around, and ban them when they get dull. (This isn’t very nice, but we’re not very nice, we’re just Good, or try to be, like Granny Weatherwax, so it’s OK.) But if they start out dull, there isn’t any fun in poking them with pointy sticks.