We got an interesting email from Ara recently, and I thought it deserved a discussion:
One of the organizations of which I am a part has a rather interesting custom that I would not have seen as a complex issue before starting to read Hathor: the cloven fruit. I’m told these are common in other parts of the reenactment community besides the corner I inhabit– anyway, the point is that you stud a fruit with cloves, offer it to someone, and the recipient either refuses it or decrees what part of the body (ranging from hand to mouth to “let’s go romp in the bushes”) they wish to have kissed. The rule is that the shyer person dictates the body part, or in some areas that the woman dictates the body part.
They’re a lot frowned upon in some parts of the group as Improper, and some people don’t like it because they feel pressured. I can see feeling pressured– I probably would have when I first joined up. As much as we like to think of ourselves as a friendly bunch who would never dream of pressuring anyone… well, there are bad apples in every group.
So I’m curious about what your opinion of the practice is and whether it is something automatically terrible and evil, or something to only be done if you know everyone involved, or something to always be done with disclaimers… since while Hathor has opened my looking at things, I know I don’t see all the same nuances you do yet!
I think there are a lot of nuances to be seen. I’ve always felt comfortable putting my body sovreignty ahead of any social considerations, so if someone is offering me a sexual encounter I’m not interested in having, there’s no social pressure in the world that would make me have it. But even I feel bad rejecting potential suitors, because I’m empathetic, and I know what rejection feels like. What sort of pressure might someone else feel from a ritual like this?
And on the other side, what sort of opportunity might it be for someone who wants a sexual encounter, but feels she or he can’t ask for it, for whatever reason?
On an even larger canvas: are there any good rituals for courtship? Dating is awful, but I’ve never been able to think of a good substitute. The best courtships are the ones that just kind of happen naturally, but they’re few and far between – for some people, even non-existent.
Your thoughts?
BetaCandy says
Don’t be dubious – I really encourage people with every viewpoint to talk on this topic. I was kind of surprised at the lack of people saying it made them uncomfortable, but it didn’t occur to me they might feel unsure about speaking up. Go right ahead, please, and give details if you’re comfortable. This is to everyone, not just Casey. Post under another name if you feel more comfortable doing it that way.
I have to say, Maria’s point’s got me thinking. My boundaries have been under heavy assault since I was a tiny child, and I have no idea what it’s like to go more than, say, a week without having to explain to someone why I don’t conform to their ideas of normal. But for me, it’s not just sexual boundaries – it’s people wanting to know why I don’t live my life just like they live theirs (conformists trying to be “normal”) so we can all be miserable in exactly the same way. I’m so used to people assaulting my boundaries every 5 minutes that I’ve just learned to avoid most people and be prepared to tell the rest when to fuck off. So, actually a ritual like this WOULD bother me. It’s just it wouldn’t bother me anymore than 90% of any given day bothers the shit out of me.
Hmm. Maybe I’m not a misanthropist. Maybe I really have just spent most of my life being surrounded by assholes.
Maria says
This, exactly. I wouldn’t find it charming, or radical, or whatever, just tiresome.
Casey says
Yeah, I wanted to say something about how, when I went on a pseudo-blind date, and the guy asked to hold my hand on the way back after the movies even though I wasn’t into him or what was going on AT ALL, I felt so pressured/freaked out so bad that I ended up crying (which also plays into the fact that yeah, I have EMPATHY and if someone rejected me I’d feel like shit), so if someone approached me with some orange covered in spiky things asking me to do SOMETHING, ANYTHING AT ALL of a pseudo-romantic/courtly nature, I’d just be pressured/feel weirded out.
I didn’t really want to say anything ‘cuz I was afraid I’d offend all the….uh…are the people who do this RennFaire RP-ers or something? I didn’t want to make them feel like crap either. >_>V
Patrick McGraw says
I hadn’t commented earlier for some of the reasons discussed above. This practice would make me, personally, super-duper-I-am-never-coming-back-here uncomfortable.
Which again puts the lie to the idea that women should be flattered by unwanted advances because “any man would be in their place.”
Maria says
@Patrick
The thing that gets me, though, is that as a fairly attractive woman whose body characteristics (race and build) mark me as seemingly more sexually available/accessible/likely to say “yes,” I think my saying no would make it so I wasn’t INVITED back.
Made m think of how pretty waitresses are unfairly penalized for delivering average/above average service because pretty women should ALWAYS be awesome and agreeable and never just regular. http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=2622184&page=1
Patrick McGraw says
Maria,
Yes, I can definitely see that.
Robin says
I’ve only encountered the cloven fruit ritual twice, but both were at parties populated by (mostly polyamorous) close friends that made me (the self-proclaimed “token vanilla” friend) feel very safe no matter what I decided to do with it. In a situation like the one described in the original post, I’d be much more likely to decline altogether. I’m uncomfortable enough surrendering any of my bodily autonomy in the presence of medical professionals; strangers with some level of sexual interest would freak me right out.
And count me among the oblivious geek girl population. I’m rarely aware and never sure of someone’s romantic feelings unless and until they look me straight in the eye and say, “I like you. Would you like to go on a date and/or engage in some kissing?” I may have been on a series of dates last year, or I might have just had a series of dinners with a friend. Both of us fall into the too-shy-to-make-the-first-move camp, so it’s difficult to tell. ::le sigh::